Date:         Sat, 25 Jan 2025 12:30:37 -0800
Reply-To:     mark@MARKMCCULLEY.COM
Sender:       Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From:         Mark McCulley <mark@MARKMCCULLEY.COM>
Subject:      Re: Start battery any new tips when replacing?
In-Reply-To:  <2061291434.2404950.1737834897730@mail.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8

A tube that vents gas from the battery leads to outside of the vehicle.

> On Jan 25, 2025, at 11:54 AM, Richard Koerner <rjkinpb@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> 
> I still don't understand how you could effectively contain the Hydrogen gas.  I mean maybe if you had the Hindenburg.  Or a rubber toy balloon.  It would take much work and effort to capture that Hydrogen gas.  Naw, this is a Non Issue in my opinion.  And "sealed compartment"?  Who are we kidding here, impossible!  Yes, propane gas sinks and collects; Hydrogen gas rises and readily escapes and is gone!  And this is exactly why you have never heard of this occurring before.
> 
> On Saturday, January 25, 2025 at 09:31:56 AM PST, Mark McCulley <mark@markmcculley.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> In my van, '87 Westfalia, the battery is in a sealed compartment under the passenger seat. Any hydrogen emitted from the battery would collect inside that sealed compartment. In theory if mixed with an appropriate amount of oxygen and a spark were present it could explode, though I've never heard of this occurring before.
> 
> My current Group 41 battery is approaching 7 years in service and hasn't yet failed, I'm replacing it as preventative maintenance. It does have a connection for the vent tube.
> 
> -Mark
> 
> 
> 
> > On Jan 25, 2025, at 9:17 AM, Richard Koerner <rjkinpb@sbcglobal.net <mailto:rjkinpb@sbcglobal.net>> wrote:
> > 
> > Batteries have a New Found love for me!  I just replaced mine 2 weeks ago, Group 41, from OReilleys.  $200.  Reason:  It was about 5 years old, had been sitting in my Vanagon at Body Shop for 20 months, I had enough to worry about anyway just to get my van home.  I don't get the whole thing about venting Hydrogen; I mean, it is the lightest of gases, rises to roof, as soon as you open your door all of goes out like a child's toy balloon.  Facebook discussions reveal that Modern Group 41 Batteries are crap....reliable sources say they rarely last 2 years.  I really don't know....I guess I will find out the hard way.  And no, to best of my knowledge there is no vent tube gizmo on modern batteries.  Also, I discovered that the "Carry Handle" on modern batteries is readily removed by a flat blade screwdriver to kind of pry the catches while lifting; but ready to go right back in the slots for removal next time, and store the Carry Handle under Passenger Seat.
> > 
> >    On Saturday, January 25, 2025 at 08:59:50 AM PST, Mark McCulley <mark@markmcculley.com <mailto:mark@markmcculley.com>> wrote:  
> > 
> > Hi, just following up on this discussion of replacing the starter battery as mine is approaching 7 years old. My web searches indicate that NAPA still offers a Group 41 battery and that Interstate still makes Group 41 batteries. I have a couple of questions for the list.
> > 
> > 1. Has anyone purchased a Group 41 battery from Costco or Walmart in the past year or so?
> > 2. Should I be concerned if the replacement battery doesn't have a vent tube connection?
> > 
> > Thanks in advance!
> > 
> > -Mark
> > 
> >> On Dec 26, 2023, at 9:57 AM, Dennis Haynes <d23haynes57@HOTMAIL.COM <mailto:d23haynes57@HOTMAIL.COM>> wrote:
> >> 
> >> Hope everyone had a Merry Christmas.
> >> So why would courage be needed to ask a question?
> >> The real problem here is answering in a way that makes sense. There is lot of engineering involved in batteries and charging systems with many compromises in place to ensure some level of reliability, reasonable life, and yes risk mitigation.
> >> While I participate a lot in the Vanagon community it is not my career. It is mostly a hobby, sideline for me. My careers is based on industrial machinery and equipment. As part of this I operate and maintain large UPS systems, Solar systems, and battery powered Material Handling Equipment. I know my way around lead acid and AGM type batteries.
> >> 
> >> Hydrogen is an extremely flammable gas with a very wide range of flammability.  This first course of risk mitigation for the Vanagon is that the charging voltage is relatively low, just near the typical gassing voltage of 2.3 volts/cell, 13.8 volts. "Maintenance Free" batteries never fully charge at this voltage but tend to work out long term. An occasional charge with a charger that goes to 14.2 to 14.5 volts will help to prevent the plates from sulfating and stir the electrolyte. Deep cycle batteries, especially tall one need this regularly. For large batteries as in forklift we often go as high as 2.7 volts per cell.  Our starting batteries do not like this. Anyway during these charge cycles significant hydrogen is generated along with sulfuric acid fumes. So battery rooms are typically monitored and force ventilated. At 1% Hydrogen accumulation we speed up the fans. At 2% we speed up further and sound alarms. Above that we shut down chargers and consider evacuation. Hydrogen at those low levels can be that dangerous.
> >> 
> >> Again getting back to our vehicles when we think of battery failure we often just think of the no start or failure to hold a charge. Batteries and charging systems can fail in a number of ways. Shorted or dry cells are the most common ways for things to get ugly. A shorted cell will make the remaining cells get over charges. Even at 13.8 volts a shorted cell means the others will be charges 2.76 volts per cell, or the same as being charged at 16.56 volts. Off gassing and boil over can be the result. This is where when we want the battery to be isolated from living space (connected to charger while sleeping), and some way for the overflow and gasses to make it outside. For the Westy we have the sealed battery box with a low vent in to the wheel well to let liquid out if needed. For those adding an auxiliary battery a similar consideration needs to made. The vent tube method is the easiest and neatest.
> >> 
> >> For AGM batteries the concept is that the gasses are recombined due to the construction, (chemical and alloys used) and sealed cells. Normally these do not off gas. But still a failure can occur so for recreational vehicles various codes require that the batteries are outside or in compartments sealed from the interior. From experience, most RV's with Propane are equipped with flammable gas detectors. Even with the compartments outside these detectors would go off as the golf cart house batteries would go into off gassing, often around 3-4 am. So I would lower the charge profile at night to prevent that. Hydrogen gets around and collects that well.
> >> 
> >> At work we have some European drum handlers and related equipment. Even the AGM batteries on that equipment has vent/drain tubes to prevent gasses and liquids from accumulating in the control cabinets. Proper battery venting has its value.
> >> 
> >> Dennis
> >> 
> >> 
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com <mailto:vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>> On Behalf Of Richard Koerner
> >> Sent: Monday, December 25, 2023 2:40 PM
> >> To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM <mailto:vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM>
> >> Subject: Re: Start battery any new tips when replacing?
> >> 
> >> I have never understood the issue with having a "vent tube".  Isn't the gas produced Hydrogen?  Isn't it the lightest gas, with smallest molecules?  Doesn't it just rise through any available crack?  Doesn't all that gas just fly up and out van once door is opened?  And how does a vent tube work....I mean you can't exactly force the lighter than air gas to vent downward.  Sorry for all my confusion folks....but I finally got the courage to ask the question!
> >> 
> >>    On Sunday, December 24, 2023 at 11:45:59 AM PST, Eric Caron <ericcaron96@comcast.net <mailto:ericcaron96@comcast.net>> wrote:
> >> 
> >> Hi all,
> >> 
> >> Thanks Dennis,
> >> 
> >> Can someone describe the 96R AGM and why it might be worth more dollars?
> >> 
> >> Would the battery fit and terminals match up?
> >> 
> >> Otherwise, I’ll start hunting for a group 41.
> >> 
> >>        I have time and also want to check my old one for any crank or voltage degradation.
> >> 
> >> Eric Caron
> >> 
> >> 
> >>> On Dec 24, 2023, at 1:26 PM, Dennis Haynes <d23haynes57@hotmail.com <mailto:d23haynes57@hotmail.com>> wrote:
> >>> 
> >>> The size and layout of the battery compartment is amongst the annoyances of owning a Vanagon. Especially the height limitation. The proper fitment for the Vanagon water cooled is the BCI Group 41, The air cooled used BCI Group 42. Both these sizes are becoming limited in choices and noe are available in AGM or other technologies.
> >>> 
> >>> For the Westphalia the fit is even worse as that box with sealed cover was added to isolate the battery from the "living" space. A bit surprising as most Audi's of the era with the battery under the rear seat had the vent-drain tube arrangement.
> >>> 
> >>> Anyway had the battery box been a bit taller than a BCI Group 48 battery would fit. These are current and common. These are also available in AGM and other special purpose versions
> >>> 
> >>> Recently I have installed a number of BCI Group 40R (posts reversed), AH capacity just slightly less but the fit is much improved. Especially on the 86 and later with that heavy starter cable. The NAPA ones also have a provision for the vent tube.
> >>> 
> >>> The 96R should also fit and while rare there are some available in AGM form, including Odyssey. ($$$)
> >>> 
> >>> There are a lot of factors including luck that effect the life and performance of a battery. I have seen many last for years and some fail in a year or 2. A variable is how well did they get formed, (initial charge at factory) and how they are charged and treated just after installation.  Abusing a new battery with a hard to start vehicle or non performing charging system will reduce its life and performance.
> >>> 
> >>> All that said a starting battery is a consumable and while we hate to spend $$$, the standard replacement cost is about the same as 2 or 3 tanks of fuel.
> >>> Decide on standard or if you want something better (AGM), (may not really be), price shop for best deal and availability and go for it.
> >>> 
> >>> Merry Christmas
> >>> Dennis
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com <mailto:vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>> On Behalf Of Eric Caron
> >>> Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2023 1:45 PM
> >>> To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM <mailto:vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM>
> >>> Subject: Start battery any new tips when replacing?
> >>> 
> >>> Hi folks,
> >>> 
> >>>      As my Start battery is 10 years old I"m considering a prevention purchase of a new battery.
> >>> 
> >>> Below is text from a battery email from another list with some thoughts.
> >>> 
> >>> Is there a 91 group that fits?  And why would someone use something other than a group 41?
> >>> 
> >>> What battery would you recommend as a start battery these days?
> >>> 
> >>> Have their been any improvements we can take advantage of?
> >>> 
> >>> Or, do I go to Walmart and see if I can find any group 41 on the shelf.
> >>> Old email below:
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>> Group 91 and 40R are good fitment. FWIW, there are only a couple manufacturers of std lead acid batteries and almost any name brand you choose is going to be about the same. Napa doesn't make their own, Interested etc are going to be all about the same other than warranties - but read the fine print as that varies.
> >>> Autozone has the 41DL: https://www.autozone.com/batteries-starting-and-charging/battery/p/duralast-battery-41-dl-group-size-41-650-cca/31694_0_0
> >>> I'm using the Odyssey Battery 96R-600 in my Westy.
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>> I've been using interstate batteries on my vans for 23 years with good results.
> >>>> 
> >>>> There are other options:
> >>>> 
> >>>> https://batterygroupexpert.com/group-41-battery/
> >>>> _._,_._,_
> >>> _._,_._,_
> >>> <http://groups.io/>
> >>> Thoughts appreciated.
> >>> 
> >>> Eric Caron
> >> 
> >