Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2024 12:28:38 -0700
Reply-To: OlRivrRat <OlRivrRat@COMCAST.NET>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: OlRivrRat <OlRivrRat@COMCAST.NET>
Subject: Re: Tire size question
In-Reply-To: <E3E15A58-984B-4548-9D45-D7F6265E4CFF@comcast.net>
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Eric
All of My VW Vans, 76 Westy, 83.5 Westy & 90 Westy have been equipped with
oversized tires >
76 Westy had 27.5in OD, 235mm wide BFGs on it
83.5 Westy had same as 76 put on soon after purchase in late 83
90 Westy had 235/75r15 (28.9in OD) put on it soon after purchase in 2006
There is no doubt that acceleration is degraded by taller tires but Busses & Vangons
Aint meant to be Drag Racers or SportsCars !!
& there may very well be more brake force needed to bring them to a halt, But the
bigger Foot Print of a Taller Wider tire gives them better stopping ability & the bigger OD
gives them better off the line ability in mud & snow & gravel & the Bigger Circumference
provides Fewer Rev’s per Mile which can provide better MsPG & Does provide fewer Rev’s
per mile on all drivetrain parts ~
I live @ 5500 Ft ASL & usually play @ between that & 10000 ft so the power of My
vehicle engines is reduced by 18 to 20% but the upside is that I can get 18 to 20% better
MsPG than if @ SeaLevel ~ Not recalling much about MsPG on the 76 but 83.5 & 90 avg’d
18-20 MsPG & since I put the Suby EJ25 in the 90 in 2009 It gets around 22 on avg ~
ORR ~ DeanB
PS > 90 Westies 235/75r15 were Discount Discovery ’til they disappeared & now are
Cooper Discoverer AT & also have switched Rears to 235/70r16 (Slider clears by about 1/4")
> On 17 Nov , 2024, at 6:45 PM, Eric Caron <ericcaron96@COMCAST.NET> wrote:
>
> Makes sense.
>
> There is usually more than one right answer. In my case I love the stability of the wider tires when being passed by trucks or making turns. And, maybe the increased mpg. My 84 is also running taller tires and the mpg is great. Drivability is great and it climbs hills like crazy and is stopping fine with stock brakes. But of course I’m comparing that to a automatic.
>
> We all have different preferences. But, great to understand what the different tire sizes might offer for different preferences.
>
> I’ve learned a lot in this thread. I feel I still have more to burn but I’m getting closer.
>
> And, I’m taking that info and applying to my other vehicles to see what I’ve learned.
>
> Eric
>
>
>> On Nov 17, 2024, at 7:40 PM, Richard Koerner <rjkinpb@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>> My mechanic even suggested this, taller tires. I've got a Subie EJ22 motor, plenty of power. But when I am scrambling up twisty mountain roads, I want all the power I can get. And when I am descending down those same twisty mountain roads, I want all the braking force I can get. Nope...taller tires are not for me.
>>
>> On Sunday, November 17, 2024 at 04:28:52 PM PST, Eric Caron <ericcaron96@comcast.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Hi Richard,
>>
>> I would have to disagree with you on this. Sometimes change is good. Even VW engineers sometimes changed things along the way and found the earlier thoughts were not right.
>>
>> In my case I have an engine that is more powerful then original, I have disk brakes all around, and front are larger then stock. My tires are wider and a bit taller than stock and I don’t face any of the issues you mention. And, it sounds like folks like Dennis with his 235/55 tires R17 and Karl with his 225/70 R 16 are both happy with the bigger diameter tires.
>>
>> The handling of my vans, both with larger then diameter tires is much improved likely to the increased width of the tires.
>>
>> I’m still learning, but running a stock diameter tire is not what I think the consensus of owners and those servicing vans are supporting, especially with improved motors and braking, though Dennis and Karl have stock motors, but it sounds like upgraded brakes.
>>
>> But, I could be wrong, it has happened before.
>>
>> Eric Caron
>>
>>
>>> On Nov 17, 2024, at 7:05 PM, Richard Koerner <rjkinpb@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> Basic Physics dictate that it is best to keep with outside tire diameter as the whole thing was conceived. Why? Bigger outside rubber means less acceleration power. Less braking power. Screwy speedometer too.
>>>
>>> On Sunday, November 17, 2024 at 03:09:50 PM PST, Eric Caron <ericcaron96@comcast.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> OK good people,
>>>
>>> Take this out to another thread. No hijacking my tire size and tire learning thread.
>>>
>>> Before we get all side tracked back to helping me figure out how to not only determine diameter but also side wall stiffness, and chance to get some hight without rubbing slider or front end.
>>>
>>> My van is a 85 and generally sits high, though I think my front is sinking a bit, and I plan to simply use some very nicely made front shims to get back that inch or so I’ve lost.
>>>
>>> Eric
>>>
>>>
>>>> On Nov 17, 2024, at 5:56 PM, David McNeely <davmcneely40@GMAIL.COM <mailto:davmcneely40@GMAIL.COM>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Karl, I was just stating the difference between you and me given the things
>>>> you stated about the van. I am by nature a cautious individual. I did not
>>>> say, "push it off on" someone else. I said, "push it to someone else."
>>>> There is a difference in meaning. Let's drop it, shall we?
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, Nov 17, 2024 at 1:35 PM Karl <tdiguru@westyventures.com <mailto:tdiguru@westyventures.com>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> You read too much into every word. Or you just have some looney axe to
>>>>> grind against me, for which I say 'bugger off' although I am thinking
>>>>> much harsher words. 😛
>>>>>
>>>>> Let me try again:
>>>>> THIS VAN IS NOT A RUST BUCKET. Yes, it does have minor rust in the
>>>>> rockers and a few seams. Most Vanagons east of the Rockies do. I've
>>>>> owned in excess of 40 Vanagons and have worked on them since 1982
>>>>> professionally so I think 'I know a thing or two'.
>>>>>
>>>>> NOW I plan to "push it off on someone"? HUH??? What the H E
>>>>> doubletoothpicks are you talking about? I HAVE ZERO PLANS TO SELL IT.
>>>>> I've had several sets of friends borrow it for events and one for a
>>>>> 2-month PNW explorative trip and ALL LOVED IT and said it was one of the
>>>>> best driving Westies they've driven. 😛
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 11/17/2024 1:06 PM, David McNeely wrote:
>>>>>> I don't "know nothing about" your van "at all."Â I know what you told
>>>>>> me. Safety aside, for reason of the things you described, I would not
>>>>>> (and would not have from the beginning) kept (or acquired in the first
>>>>>> place) the vehicle. That you did and plan to push it to someone else
>>>>>> is YOUR action. Mine would be different.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sun, Nov 17, 2024 at 12:35 PM Karl <tdiguru@westyventures.com <mailto:tdiguru@westyventures.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> HUH? What? Are you making a judgement of something you know nothing
>>>>>> about? Wow.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> EVERYTHING SAFETY + MECHANICALLY RELATED WAS REPAIRED, I AM NOT AN
>>>>>> IDIOT!
>>>>>> There are ZERO safety issues in this Westy! Leaks have been sealed as
>>>>>> they pop up, the auto trans is the current culprit, a bit of
>>>>>> 'wack-a-mole'. It drives as nicely as any Westy you'll find. Front
>>>>>> brakes are now Audi A6.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://photos.app.goo.gl/JD6nnDNE1aT4KRuSA
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 11/17/2024 12:12 PM, David McNeely wrote:
>>>>>>> And tell us again why this vehicle is kept on the road at all?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Sun, Nov 17, 2024 at 11:55 AM Karl
>>>>>> <tdiguru@westyventures.com <mailto:tdiguru@westyventures.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Â Â Â It's highly unlikely my Westy will ever find its way across
>>>>> the
>>>>>>> Â Â Â country
>>>>>>> Â Â Â again, given the current canine family size and the Westy
>>>>>> leaking
>>>>>>> Â Â Â almost
>>>>>>> Â Â Â every fluid, haha! It's also in the queue for a conversion
>>>>>> to mTDI,
>>>>>>> Â Â Â Syncro manual transmission and Syncro tank in the near
>>>>>> future, which
>>>>>>> Â Â Â will take the mpg to 30-ish and 1000-mile range.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Â Â Â It isn't a really nice van overall, as it came via the samba
>>>>>> from
>>>>>>> Â Â Â Minnesota where it was exposed to a lot of salt underneath.
>>>>>> I had to
>>>>>>> Â Â Â replace every part of the braking system and many other
>>>>>> rusted parts
>>>>>>> Â Â Â underneath. Some rust in the rockers, hidden by the
>>>>>> fiberglass panels.
>>>>>>> Â Â Â The transmission had a galley plug rusted out, which I
>>>>>> discovered
>>>>>>> Â Â Â when I
>>>>>>> Â Â Â filled the transmission. That was fixed with a rubber plug
>>>>>> and a metal
>>>>>>> Â Â Â clamp bolted into a nearby bolt hole. The engine had a
>>>>> cobbled
>>>>>>> Â Â Â together
>>>>>>> Â Â Â mess of original pipes and undersized patches welded in. The
>>>>>> first
>>>>>>> Â Â Â drive, the oil buzzer came on when hot. At the time a friend
>>>>>> who does
>>>>>>> Â Â Â conversion had a Euro DJ 112i engine he had just pulled
>>>>> from a
>>>>>>> Â Â Â customer
>>>>>>> Â Â Â van, available for $600 with wiring harness and ECU so I
>>>>>> jumped on it.
>>>>>>> Â Â Â It will be for sale after the TDI conversion is finished.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Â Â Â On 11/17/2024 7:17 AM, Eric Caron wrote:
>>>>>>> Â Â Â > Hi Karl and others,
>>>>>>> Â Â Â >
>>>>>>> Â Â Â >ÂÂ ÂÂ ÂÂ Â We could search for differences in the vans
>>>>> for
>>>>>> days.Â
>>>>>>> Â Â Â AndÂÂ state this is not a scientifically valid study. But,
>>>>>> to save
>>>>>>> Â Â Â time.ÂÂ I agree with that.
>>>>>>> Â Â Â >
>>>>>>> Â Â Â > Still, Karl’s van is about the closest I’ll find to
>>>>> compare.
>>>>>>> Â Â Â >
>>>>>>> Â Â Â > My less then scientific thinking is that if I’m getting
>>>>> 15 mpg
>>>>>>> Â Â Â with smaller tires and Karl gets 16.5 or better with larger
>>>>>> tires.
>>>>>>> Â Â Â Then maybe.
>>>>>>> Â Â Â >
>>>>>>> Â Â Â > If Karl ran tires smaller his MPG might go down some.ÂÂ
>>>>> If
>>>>>> that
>>>>>>> Â Â Â is correct.ÂÂ Maybe increasing my tire diameter to match
>>>>> Karl’s
>>>>>>> Â Â Â might increase my Mpg some.
>>>>>>> Â Â Â >
>>>>>>> Â Â Â > I know we could talk about tire friction, type of roads
>>>>> near
>>>>>>> Â Â Â Karl and me, and temperature differences, type of gas we
>>>>> put in
>>>>>>> Â Â Â the tank, and how I weigh more then Karl.
>>>>>>> Â Â Â >
>>>>>>> Â Â Â > But, is it kind of possible that there really is
>>>>> something to
>>>>>>> Â Â Â the wheel diameter and MPG?
>>>>>>> Â Â Â >
>>>>>>> Â Â Â > Remember all the 1970 adds telling us to be sure our tires
>>>>>> were
>>>>>>> Â Â Â inflated?ÂÂ Were they tricking me?ÂÂ OK they probably
>>>>> were.
>>>>>>> Â Â Â >
>>>>>>> Â Â Â > OK, the tire inflation might be about friction not
>>>>> diameter of
>>>>>>> Â Â Â tire, they didn’t say.
>>>>>>> Â Â Â >
>>>>>>> Â Â Â > I think the solution is that Karl should drive over here
>>>>> to VT
>>>>>>> Â Â Â and we do a drive side by side with the vans, then we switch
>>>>>>> Â Â Â wheels and do it again.ÂÂ Both at the same time of day,
>>>>> gas from
>>>>>>> Â Â Â the same station, and the vans matched for weight.
>>>>>>> Â Â Â >
>>>>>>> Â Â Â > No bra on either van, same mirrors, same wax on the body.
>>>>>>> Â Â Â >
>>>>>>> Â Â Â > We can do this!
>>>>>>> Â Â Â >
>>>>>>> Â Â Â > Karl, we can do it before West River Westies July 2025.
>>>>>>> Â Â Â >
>>>>>>> Â Â Â > And your van sounds nice.ÂÂ How did you ever end up with
>>>>> that
>>>>>>> Â Â Â engine? I only recently learned about those European
>>>>> versions of
>>>>>>> Â Â Â our water boxers.
>>>>>>> Â Â Â >
>>>>>>> Â Â Â > Eric
>>>>>>> Â Â Â >
>>>>>>> Â Â Â >
>>>>>>> Â Â Â >> On Nov 17, 2024, at 2:26 AM, Karl Mullendore
>>>>>>> Â Â Â <tdiguru@WESTYVENTURES.COM <mailto:tdiguru@WESTYVENTURES.COM>> wrote:
>>>>>>> Â Â Â >>
>>>>>>> Â Â Â >> Other factors are mine is a Multivan poptop, at 4300
>>>>>> feet, and
>>>>>>> Â Â Â a good running
>>>>>>> Â Â Â >> 112i with factory Digijet, totally stock except for the
>>>>>> 4-hole
>>>>>>> Â Â Â injectors. You
>>>>>>> Â Â Â >> have a slightly larger engine at sea level running GW's
>>>>>>> Â Â Â whatever they threw
>>>>>>> Â Â Â >> together which may or may not achieve as good mileage
>>>>> ever.
>>>>>>> Â Â Â >> Karl
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>
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