Date:         Mon, 1 Jul 2019 15:14:00 -0700
Reply-To:     Bruce Todd <beeceetee@GMAIL.COM>
Sender:       Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From:         Bruce Todd <beeceetee@GMAIL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Vanagon Reliability & Philosophy
In-Reply-To:  <0287C6AC-A11E-44EA-8BAD-13D9226F7917@shaw.ca>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

Well Pirsig did spend a lot of time trying to define the essence of quality
- and perhaps that is what you are saying Jim.

BT

On Mon, Jul 1, 2019 at 12:54 PM Alistair Bell <albell@shaw.ca> wrote:

> What failed on the alternator Jim?
>
> Alistair
>
> > On Jul 1, 2019, at 12:41 PM, Jim. Felder <jim.felder@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > One thing Pirsig never factored in was the spiraling disaster that is
> rebuilt assemblies. Tomorrow I will pay $140 for a rebuilt alternator for
> my diesel Vanagon. The problem is that I paid one of the list vendors that
> much for the item originally—exactly 11,678 miles ago, a Bosch Premium
> Rebuild.    When you are on the wrong end of the life cycle curve on
> starters and alternators, preventive maintenance becomes catch-and-release.
> As soon as you install the thing, start looking for the next one.
> >
> >
> >
> > Jim
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >>
> >> On Jul 1, 2019 at 10:37 AM,  <Jack Elliott (mailto:pdaxe2gto@gmail.com)>
> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> I just see my van as entropy in action. Also an engineer (though
> >> electrical, not mechanical) I view it as a system of parts that are
> >> imperfect, a kludge of things that will work for a while. It's gonna
> break.
> >> In a big way, or a small way, the oncoming heat death of the universe
> makes
> >> itself known. I stay alert for signs of weirdness and try to
> understand
> >> them, see if they are significant or not, and address them accordingly
> to
> >> the best of these guesses and the best of my ability. I rely on the
> >> knowledge of others whenever I can. Adding a passenger, a SO for
> example,
> >> who does not share my willingness to accept the inevitable, will
> greatly
> >> reduce the sometimes pleasurable aspect of dealing with a breakdown
> and
> >> solving the problem creatively. IOW, if getting someplace on time is
> >> critical, if there are others with me that will not get a kick out of
> being
> >> stuck somewhere because an oil filter blew off (it happened to me due
> to my
> >> ignorance of filter threads, another story), then it's gonna have a
> Bad
> >> Time. Masochism in action? To paraphrase my son, "any d*****bag with a
> >> credit card can have a reliable car." Sometimes just getting somewhere
> >> without trouble is in itself accomplishment enough.
> >>
> >> That, plus people think these vehicles are totally cool and wish they
> could
> >> get one.
> >>
> >>
> >> On Mon, Jul 1, 2019 at 8:02 AM kenneth wilford (Van-Again)  <
> >> kenwilfy@comcast.net>  wrote:
> >>
> >>> I look at the van as a never ending restoration project. You start
> with
> >>> the things that affect your safety and reliability first like brakes,
> >>> steering, suspension, the engine, the transmission. Once these have
> been
> >>> inspected and repaired, then you can move on to creature comforts like
> AC
> >>> and cosmetics. The problem is most folks focus on the creature
> comforts
> >>> and cosmetics first and expect the mechanicals will be fine as long as
> the
> >>> van looks good (new paint or wheels), and has a great sounding radio
> (I
> >>> guess it is fun to rock out while you wait for the tow truck).
> >>>
> >>> Also one of my customers chants this mantra, "Don't let perfection get
> in
> >>> the way of good enough." You have to know when to say when on any
> >>> project. If you are seeking perfection you will never find it. But if
> you
> >>> are seeking functionality and safety you should find it in enough
> measure
> >>> to feel confident in your Vanagon. I use Progressive insurance which
> >>> includes a nice towing and roadside assistance plan, which I think
> every
> >>> car owner should have no matter what they are driving.
> >>>
> >>> That is about it. I know the aircraft mechanic, engineer, etc. tends
> to
> >>> over analyze and over think the repairs or restoration of the van.
> Usually
> >>> this leads to lots of great plans, ripping everything apart to do a
> >>> "proper" restoration, and then abandoning the project when life gets
> in the
> >>> way. Avoid this. Instead, do the basics, get it running and safe, and
> >>> then enjoy it for the summer or two before doing the "full monty" on
> it.
> >>> That way you can decide if you really want to do that, or if you want
> to
> >>> sell it to someone else, or if you are "gasp" satisfied with the van
> even
> >>> with the quirks and imperfections. Some of them came from the
> factory...
> >>>
> >>> Ken
> >>>
> >>>> On Mon, Jul 1, 2019 at 10:28 AM Alex MeVay  <alex@mevay.org>
> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> I've also been interested in exploring this, and I think Richard S
> >>>> gave some great points.
> >>>>
> >>>> I'm 5 years into my Vanagon, and it's given me the highest highs and
> >>>> lowest lows of any vehicle I've owned. Some of the recent trip
> >>>> reports have done a good job capturing the highs. As for the lows:
> >>>> after endless weekends and evenings of work, sitting there staring
> at
> >>>> a half-busted van and a to-do list that never gets any shorter...
> Rod
> >>>> sticking through the oil pan (I-4) one day before your long-planned
> >>>> trip down the CA coast with your SO... You know the routine.
> >>>>
> >>>> At first, I approached the van like I would my other projects: as an
> >>>> engineer (my day job). I would think through each repair and upgrade
> >>>> to make sure it would last at least 1,000 years (or say at least
> 30),
> >>>> and add to the todo list anything that might ever fail ever. This
> was
> >>>> a recipe for negative thoughts and feelings about the van. I
> >>>> struggled, even to the point of having impure thoughts about
> >>>> Sprinters. At some point, I stumbled across this article, which I
> >>>> found extremely helpful:
> >>>>
> >>>> https://worldpowersystems.com/PROJECTS/wabiTekSabi/index.html
> >>>>
> >>>> Among other points, it encourages thinking about objects as
> processes
> >>>> or situations, not perfected Platonic ideals. Instead of thinking
> >>>> about the van as an object I have thus far failed to perfect, it's
> >>>> better to think about the process and context: the exchange of
> driving
> >>>> the van, doing maintenance. A van by itself is meaningless...add a
> >>>> driver, a 2-lane road, and that exchange of energy, and now you're
> >>>> going somewhere. Instead of asking myself, "Is it perfect?", I
> >>>> learned to ask, "Will it get me to the desert and back in relative
> >>>> safety and comfort?" This is a much lower standard, but it gets more
> >>>> to the heart of why I think we all do this. It acknowledges that,
> >>>> even before you tighten that last bolt, the process of decay and
> >>>> failure has started. All is flux, but that's OK.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Turning to more concrete matters, I think what Richard said about
> your
> >>>> eyes and seat being the OBD hits the nail on the head. Being
> >>>> mercilessly vigilant about understanding every creak, drip,
> vibration,
> >>>> and smell is the best way to avoid big problems. You don't need to
> >>>> fix it all, but I feel you need to understand it. For every issue or
> >>>> warning sign, I ask:
> >>>>
> >>>> What is the root cause?
> >>>>
> >>>> How bad is this if it fails? (annoyance, or end of trip?)
> >>>>
> >>>> Is it likely to fail all at once, or slowly get worse? (Will I have
> >>>> some warning that a repair is required?)
> >>>>
> >>>> Is there a possibility of cascading failure? (i.e., bad engine
> >>>> mount->trashed exhaust)
> >>>>
> >>>> Can it be repaired in the field?
> >>>>
> >>>> Running through these questions for each issue helps me prioritize
> >>>> repairs and understand the risks I am taking (or lack thereof) each
> >>>> time I head out on a trip.
> >>>>
> >>>> What other philosophies or mind-tricks have helped you enjoy Vanagon
> >>>> ownership, or simply get out and back safely?
> >>>>
> >>>> Alex
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> On Sun, Jun 30, 2019 at 10:32 PM Richard Smith  <smirby@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On reliability:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I commend everyone who works on reliability, and I think it is
> >>> something
> >>>> we should all be mindful of. Without the "RE" you have a liability.
> __
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On the "my wife/husband hates my van because it is unreliable"
> theme, I
> >>>> like to approach that problem from three directions:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> 1. Manage expectations. I start every (longer) trip with a reminder
> >>> that
> >>>> we could get towed, and that it shouldn't be seen as a disaster. This
> may
> >>>> appease the karma gods - I haven't been towed yet - but it also sets
> the
> >>>> tone for whatever calamity arises.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> 2. Live in the moment. If our cars didn't falter from time to time,
> and
> >>>> we drifted along in uncaring bliss, would get get to meet those
> >>> exceptional
> >>>> people who rise to the occasion? Every breakdown that I have had has
> been
> >>>> just as interesting as the rest of the trip.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> 3. Invest in your ride. Do the things that need doing, when they
> need
> >>>> it. Replace the fuel lines. Make sure the brakes, tires, suspension
> are
> >>> all
> >>>> in good condition before you set out. This won't make it never break
> >>> down,
> >>>> but it will remove some of the failure points. We don't have a lot
> of
> >>>> sensors telling us what is wrong, so your ears (and seat) are your
> "OBD"
> >>>> system.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> We often mistake the reliability that we see in others' vehicles for
> a
> >>>> completely trouble-free experience. They, too, have had their share
> of
> >>>> breakdowns, its just that we don't see them. In my time owning
> Vanagons
> >>>> (and a '73 bus before that), it has been no worse than lots of other
> >>> cars,
> >>>> and better than many.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> For most of us, our vanagon is  >30 years old. This carries with it
> a
> >>>> weighty responsibility in maintenance but also the need to embrace
> the
> >>>> uncertainty that it brings with it.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Despite all this, it remains a joy to own, and if that comes with a
> >>>> frisson of excitement because of the chance of breakdown, I'll take
> it.
> >>> Not
> >>>> for everyone, to be sure, but that's how I am dealing with it.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> ...r
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On 2019-06-30, 5:37 PM, "Vanagon Mailing List on behalf of Richard
> >>>> Koerner"  <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com on behalf of
> rjkinpb@SBCGLOBAL.NET>
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Which brings me to a last point. A few months ago someone
> >>> mentioned
> >>>> reliability as their main goal with their Westy. I am very interested
> in
> >>>> ideas about reliability that anyone might share.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> Thanks,
> >>> Ken Wilford
> >>> John 3:16
> >>> www.vanagain.com
> >>>
> >>
>