Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2015 11:38:25 -1000
Reply-To: "SDF ( aka ;jim lahey' - Scott )" <scottdaniel@TURBOVANS.COM>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: "SDF ( aka ;jim lahey' - Scott )" <scottdaniel@TURBOVANS.COM>
Organization: Cosmic Reminders
Subject: Re: Fwd: * 10/4/2015 Needed NOW! Vanagon (1981) ONLY starts when
cold /How To FIX this advice. PLEASE . . .
In-Reply-To: <CA+az7_6jWEjX++FLKe2P0BGrivmGfFevALwfsArUb83MS1+XVw@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
I think the bushing you have in mind ..
if it's like a waterboxer ( manual trans )........... the bushing is in
the bell housing ..
and should be inspected for wear anytime the starter is out.
I keep an old starter armature shaft as a test-fit measuring device to
check for wear in the bushing, very handy.
( auto trans starters have the comparable part in the starter itself,
which is better really )
Scott
On 10/5/2015 11:21 AM, John Rodgers wrote:
> Let me get this clear: the engine will not turn over with the starter when
> hot but will start by pushing it?
>
> If that is the case, I would say your problem is starter related, no other.
> I have experienced hot/undersized wire syndrome myself on other things.
> Fine when cold - throws the breaker when the wire gets hot. In your case
> not likely because the car has been in use. In spite of the fact you have a
> low use starter, replacing it with a new one, including a starter solenoid
> (in this case new - not reworked) will probably get you yhrough this. I had
> a very similar prlblem on my '88 GL. Had a low mileage starter, and the
> solennoid went bad. Wouldn't engage when engine was hot. In my case a new
> starter solenoid did the trick. That might be where to start. Replace the
> solenoid. One thing. There is a bushing for the starter motor. Me sure its
> there, otherwise it may cock over and bind, thus being hard tostart lr not
> starting at all.
>
> Good luck!
>
> John
> On Oct 5, 2015 14:30, "Linda Merrill" <lindamerrillberkeley@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
>> To answer you:
>>
>> Cranks and starts when cold.
>>
>> When warm: no cranking
>>
>> visually, MechanicA sees Bendix only
>> going part way out when warm ...
>> Not far enough to engage
>>
>> Note: Pushing w/a volvo and popping
>> the clutch started it up instantly
>> when stalled and warm on Saturday.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: "SDF ( aka ;jim lahey' - Scott )" <scottdaniel@TURBOVANS.COM
>> Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
>> Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2015 09:21:12
>> To: <vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM>
>> Reply-To: "SDF ( aka ;jim lahey' - Scott )" <scottdaniel@TURBOVANS.COM
>> Subject: Re: Fwd: * 10/4/2015 Needed NOW! Vanagon (1981) ONLY starts
>> when
>> cold /How To FIX this advice. PLEASE . . .
>>
>> in all this below it's not exactly clear to me whether , warm, it cranks
>> but won't fire up,
>> or it has trouble cranking on the starter when warm.
>>
>> ( I have had to ask this question, when someone says 'won't start' only
>> about 20,000 times in the last 3 + decades. ..Please say ..cranks fine
>> but won't fire, or won't crank on the starter properly. )
>>
>> the wires in this poor old van are 34 years old.
>> I have found that a heavy duty generic starter button from a FLAPS,
>> mounted conveniently in the dash just above the light switch on the left
>> side of the instrument panel, can really help.
>>
>> I like to wire them direct from the battery to the starter solenoid
>> trigger terminal ....
>> with fat wires. THAT will give your starter a really solid shot of juice.
>> ( of course, wired direct it's hot all the time ..so starter will
>> energize anytime the button is pushed ..
>> be careful about that for sure. )
>>
>> I've also noticed, on the rare time I have touched an air-cooled vanagon ..
>> that often, in the electrical system, just like thousands of old bugs
>> and buses have suffered from , the wires are hacked up..modified poorly
>> and so on ...often you need to 'start over' and sometimes that's
>> barely possible.
>>
>> good luck.
>> it's very worth having an auxiliary starter button that sends a solid
>> shot of juice to the solenoid..
>> no need to remove the stock system...just leave ignition switch and that
>> wiring still there.
>>
>> On 10/5/2015 8:31 AM, Jim Arnott wrote:
>>> This showed up in my inbox. Probably ought to be in the Vanagon List’s
>> inbox as well.
>>> I don’t know that Ms. Linda is on list, so please remember to reply all.
>>>
>>> Jim
>>>
>>>> Begin forwarded message:
>>>>
>>>> From: "LEM" <lemberkeley@yahoo.com>
>>>> Subject: * 10/4/2015 Needed NOW! Vanagon (1981) ONLY starts when cold
>> /How To FIX this advice. PLEASE . . .
>>>> Date: October 4, 2015 at 9:05:19 PM PDT
>>>> To: "LindaMerrill" <lemberkeley@yahoo.com>
>>>> Reply-To: lemberkeley@yahoo.com
>>>>
>>>> 10/4/2015 Needed NOW! Vanagon (1981) ONLY starts when cold /How To FIX
>> this advice. PLEASE . . .
>>>> HELP! [Okay to forward to "right" wise ones]
>>>>
>>>> Do You know how to solve this?
>>>> To get the Vanagon starting reliably warm
>>>> and cold?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Or, do you know someone who will/might
>>>> know how to solve this?
>>>> To get the Vanagon starting reliably warm
>>>> and cold?
>>>>
>>>> Do you know "the right person" who I can
>>>> talk to ASAP about how to fix this, and who
>>>> should do it that I can actually afford?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> HERE is what I Know/think:
>>>>
>>>> (A)
>>>> In the last few months, my 1981 Vanagon
>>>> stopped starting when it is warm.
>>>>
>>>> It starts easily when cold.
>>>>
>>>> Once the Vanagon is driven far enough to
>>>> warm it up (maybe a mile + ), the van will
>>>> not start again until it is cold again.
>>>>
>>>> Given an hour-plus to cool down, the van
>>>> will again start again, just fine.
>>>>
>>>> (B)
>>>> Several people have worked on this -- and
>>>> charged me for that -- and the car still only
>>>> starts when cold.
>>>>
>>>> (C)
>>>> The Bosch starter has less than 200 miles
>>>> on it. A new/rebuilt started caused the same
>>>> only-cold starting a few days ago.
>>>>
>>>> The second, long bolt to hold the starter on is
>>>> missing. I got a M10 D-Head 123 mm bolt
>>>> from The Bus Lab, and a mechanic was not
>>>> able to install that bolt -- saying it does not
>>>> fit / "wrong bolt" -- today.
>>>>
>>>> (D)
>>>> This is an ASI camper conversion, and has
>>>> an old auxiliary battery under the driver's
>>>> seat -- which does not hold a charge.
>>>>
>>>> Months ago, someone disconnected this
>>>> old auxiliary battery -- to keep the battery
>>>> isolater from trying to charge IT instead of
>>>> the main, passenger-side battery.
>>>>
>>>> With only the one battery hooked up, the
>>>> battery isolater still seems to be working,
>>>> the alternator seems to be working, and this
>>>> very new battery seems to have adequate
>>>> power.
>>>>
>>>> The temperature gauge does not seem to
>>>> work properly, and sometimes jumps and
>>>> stutters, going right from barely warm to
>>>> hot and back in two seconds.
>>>>
>>>> (E)
>>>> Yesterday, a very accomplished Volvo
>>>> MechanicB was confident he could diagnose
>>>> a solve this no-warm-starting.
>>>>
>>>> I easily started the cold car, drove it several
>>>> miles to the two mechanics, and shut it off.
>>>> And it would not turn the engine over, warm.
>>>>
>>>> We waited for it to cool down, and MechanicA
>>>> prepared to swap the "newish" Bosch
>>>> starter back in so I could return the brand-new
>>>> starter.
>>>> Starters out, MechanicA saw that the "fat"
>>>> wire that goes to the starter had a broken
>>>> specialized connection. So, he used a nut to
>>>> hold that wire firmly in place on the threaded
>>>> on-starter connection; then he attached the
>>>> two thinner wires to the same threaded
>>>> on-starter connection, below the fat wire.
>>>>
>>>> Then I started the now-cold VW with its
>>>> Bosch starter, and took it for a test drive.
>>>> I got it warm, stalled it, and it would not
>>>> start.
>>>> We pushed it to pop the clutch, I drove it
>>>> back to their place, and they began testing.
>>>>
>>>> MechanicB (the expert) tried various things.
>>>> MechanicA watched a few warm non-starts
>>>> and saw that the Bendix was not being
>>>> thrown far enough to engage -- when the
>>>> van was warm.
>>>>
>>>> MechanicB looked at the positive battery
>>>> wire by the post and said it was too flimsy.
>>>> (Someone had spliced this too-thin wire
>>>> onto the wire coming from the rear years
>>>> before I bought the VW.)
>>>> Well, he reasoned, if this cable gives a
>>>> marginal connection when cold, maybe it
>>>> carries too little power when hot.
>>>> (A grounding issue somewhere?)
>>>>
>>>> So, both mechanics connected a good battery
>>>> to the starter (using jumper cables, I think),
>>>> from a few feet away, at the rear of the VW
>>>> ar of the VW.
>>>> Then, they used the same wire to "jump"?
>>>> the starter without using the ignition key
>>>> -- I'm getting fuzzy here --
>>>> and the still-warm car started right up.
>>>>
>>>> So, MechanicB felt that his diagnosis ** had
>>>> been confirmed:
>>>> the non-original positive battery
>>>> wire . . . was too flimsy.
>>>> (Someone had spliced this too-thin wire
>>>> onto the wire coming from the rear years
>>>> before I bought the VW.)
>>>> Well, he reasoned, if this cable gives a
>>>> marginal connection when cold, maybe it
>>>> carries too little power when hot.
>>>> (A grounding problem?)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> AND. MechanicB reasoned that IF
>>>> *** he got a correct-gauge battery cable,
>>>> with connectors at each end and ran it under
>>>> the car from the starter to (the positive
>>>> ground ??? ) on the battery, all would be well.
>>>>
>>>> OKAY: MechanicB did his *** good-cable
>>>> purchase and battery-to-starter swap-in ...
>>>> He then started the cold car with the
>>>> ignition key, drove the car in circles around
>>>> a building to warm it up, and then shut it off.
>>>>
>>>> AND, now warm, again it would not start
>>>> with the key (one guesses that an observor
>>>> would again see the Bendix only going
>>>> part way toward engaging . . . ), just as before.
>>>>
>>>> MechanicB is very upset, and thinks that a
>>>> push-button starter, on the steering column,
>>>> will solve this . . . And he has no other ideas.
>>>>
>>>> MechanicsB and A have NOT
>>>> found a starter relay on this van
>>>> and believe that the ignition switch must
>>>> be fine.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> MechanicA was not involved today and
>>>> I filled him in by phone. MechanicA does not
>>>> see how a push-button starter will fix this
>>>> situation, if the low-power doesn't get the
>>>> Bendix to thrust all the way and engage.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ......
>>>>
>>>> I need to get this car starting reliably!
>>>> And, I paid for the AUG 2016 registration,
>>>> which needs a smog certificate to complete
>>>> it. I want it to start when warm before I take
>>>> it to a Test-Only smog shop, and I park this
>>>> VW on the public street.
>>>> It needs to be smogged so it can stay safely
>>>> parked on the street.
>>>>
>>>> Money, time, and car functioning are major
>>>> issues for me here. Into small savings to
>>>> pay for this already ...
>>>>
>>>> I need: the repair actual solution, a truly
>>>> affordable person to "get it done right the
>>>> first time," and to pass my smog.
>>>>
>>>> ...........
>>>>
>>>> Thank you So much!
>>>> Nowe that you know all non-mechanic I
>>>> can think might apply, here are my original
>>>> questions again:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Do You know how to solve this?
>>>> To get the Vanagon starting reliably warm
>>>> and cold?
>>>>
>>>> Or, do you know someone who will/might
>>>> know how to solve this?
>>>> To get the Vanagon starting reliably warm
>>>> and cold?
>>>>
>>>> Could this knowledgeable "right car person"
>>>> please talk with me about how I can get
>>>> this car fixed ASAP an starting when warm?
>>>>
>>>> ((( Really low on funds, I have a new ignition
>>>> Switch for this 1981 Vanagon that I could
>>>> take back for the $27 refund. Are there any
>>>> relays (what kind?) or wires you suggest
>>>> I buy tonight?.
>>>>
>>>> Do you have any helpful diagrams or
>>>> instructions you could forward to me?
>>>>
>>>> I so wish I knew how to do this, so I could
>>>> do it myself. Or be helpful to a mechanical.)))
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Thank you!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Still hopeful . . . and distessed,
>>>>
>>>> L
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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