Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2011 12:25:33 -0600
Reply-To: Tom Buese <tombuese@COMCAST.NET>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: Tom Buese <tombuese@COMCAST.NET>
Subject: Re: Clutch/Shifting issue?
In-Reply-To: <09ae01cc4b21$88228770$6601a8c0@PROSPERITY>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
It's a miracle!? After reading everyones' posts including some of impending doom via bad syncros, clutch, pilot bearings, master cylinders, etc,
I read Bentley which said to "Bleed system only with pressure bleeder"(Bentley 30.2). Since I didn't have said bleeder, & no one available to depress the clutch pedal while I manually bled the slave, I did what I have found works well in many cases:
I did nothing, & lo & behold, this am, the van shifted finely driving all around town doing errands.
WTF?
Mr. BZ-God werks in mysterious ways?
On Jul 25, 2011, at 5:20 PM, Scott Daniel - Turbovans wrote:
> the hose that feeds the clutch MC is on the right side of the brake fluid reservoir ..
> about 3/4th of the way up..
> so even if all clutch brake fluid leaks out ..say out of the slave..
> the brakes still have plenty of fluid to work with.
> And ..the brakes being bad...
> can not affect the clutch ..unless the BF level in the res gets below the line to the clutch MC .
> .and even then ..
> the full hose full of BF going to the clutch MC acts as a res for the clutch MC anyway.
>
> the clutch has not been looked at or worked on, or replaced in 105K miles.
> That's a fair amount all right.
>
> how is the pedal effort ?
> the effort should be pretty linear through the full travel.
> if it's softer at the top ...then harder below ..
> that could mean something.
> an brand new clutch with properly working hydraulics feels smooth and light almost .
> and very even in effort through the whole stoke of the pedal.
>
> deviations from that show up as parts where.
> Often ....very high pedal effort means tired clutch disc and pressure plate.
> but you have to be able to tell what part of the feel is from the clutch hydraulics and what part is from the clutch.
> see my previous post about a van that had both going on at once..
> soft from the hydraulics, hard from the clutch itself.
>
> of it was in my van ..or in my shop ..
> I'd rule out clutch hydraulics..
> observe how well the slave piston and rod move downward ( watch for slave bracket flexing..
> people leave off the front support bracket sometimes .....which can lead to bracket cracking even ) ..
>
> so look for 'lost motion' or weakness everywhere from the clutch pedal, through the hydraulics, to the lever on the side of the trans and the slave bracket..
>
> if it's not that ..
> pull the trans ( if 2WD ) and look at the clutch.,
> I can just see tons of clutch material dust there right now.
>
> sounds more like clutch itself to me ..
> though eliminate external causes first ...just watch how well the lever moves while someone pushes in the clutch pedal.
> it it's not external to the clutch bell housing ..
> then it's internal, remove trans.
>
> that a dealer did the work is no assurance that it was done properly and thoroughly.
> Likely , more expensively, yes, but 'really right' ......they're just as sloppy sometimes as anyone else.
>
> 9 yrs/105K miles is a long time on a waterboxer clutch ( though they are very good clutches generally ) and some people , and some driving conditions, are rougher on clutches than others.
>
> Scott
> www.turbovans.com
> Aloha
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Buese" <tombuese@COMCAST.NET>
> To: <vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM>
> Sent: Monday, July 25, 2011 3:15 PM
> Subject: Re: Clutch/Shifting issue?
>
>
> Ok, just checked my records-had new clutch MC & Slave cylinder installed 9/2008. Had tranny gear oil & brake fluid replaced in 9/2010, (coolant flushed/changed at same time).
>
> It was the leaking brake MC that I had changed 6-8 years ago.
>
> I have not had the engine pulled in this vanagon in the 9 years/105k I have owned it. Runs like a sewing machine. So clutch might be going bad or poorly installed, but that would have been by the VW dealer, as no one else worked on it before I bought it.
>
> Sooo, can a bad brake MC affect the fluid going thru the Clutch MC & make it not shift? Is the brake MC above the Clutch MC & directly below the resovoir?
>
> YMMV,
>
> Mr. BZ- have new FTE German Brake MC in my van stash.
>
>
> On Jul 25, 2011, at 3:43 PM, Scott Daniel - Turbovans wrote:
>
>> Kakua 4 U.
>>
>> if it's the orignial clutch master cylinder , it was due to be replaced 5 or more years ago.
>> Defenitly weak if original.
>>
>> a clutch mas cyl can pump in air without leaking fluid exterenally ...easily. All hyd master cylinders can do that.
>>
>> a manual pedal-stroking bleeding method will show if it's pumping in air.
>>
>> not likely shift linkage.
>> if not external to the clutch itself ..
>> like a hydrulic problem .
>> then it would be internal ..
>> such as ...worn out/detroyed pilot bearing .
>> not that uncommon since the little metal ring in the flywheel that holds the felt clutch dust seal is often missing ..
>> leading to pilot bearing failure easily.
>> that failure can show up as intermittant failing to get a clean release of the clutch.
>>
>> how does the pedal feel.
>> mushy ?
>> I have seen a vangon with this going on ..
>> the clutch pedal was mushy, as in shot hydraulics.
>> yet at the same time..
>> the effort to push down the pedal was higher than normal..
>> which goes with very high miles on the pressure plate and disc..
>> so that one was both
>> soft and hard at the same time. No kidding.
>> and likely very not easily detected by many people.
>>
>> that van needed the hydraulics straigtened out and a better or new disc and pressure plate.
>>
>> fwiw .
>> it's very common to see bad workmanship in vanagon cluches..
>> the pilot bearing dust seal thing..
>> missing locating dowels on the flywheel for the pressure plate..
>> completely poorly lube release meachism parts ..etc. etc. etc.
>>
>> and ..that clevis and pin pivot point way up on the clutch pedal ..
>> there's no provision for lubing that .
>> it's bare metal-to-metal ..and that spot wears.
>> You can blindly spray up in there with a good spray lube to help some.
>> if the freeplay a the top of the clutch pedal is more than a half inch ( 1/8th inch is ideal ) ...
>> it's probalby wearing there some.
>> and it's not easy to deal with at all.
>> so always ...try to get some spray lube up there somehow.
>>
>> and actually ..
>> vanagons suffer from lack of lubrication thoughout so badly...I can not say it enough.
>> IF everything that moves was kept nicely lubed..
>> they would never wear out.
>> there are dozens and dozens, hundreds even ..of spots on vanagons that have never been lubed, that move against each other...never lubed since the factory. A real, and very unnessary, shame.
>>
>> someday I'll make that list of spots..
>> it's well over a hundred, easily.
>>
>> clutch hyd fluid needs to be changed every two years..
>> and is mandatory , as far as I'm concerned, any time there's a new clutch, trans is replaced , etc.
>>
>>
>> scott
>> www.turbovans.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Buese" <tombuese@COMCAST.NET>
>> To: <vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM>
>> Sent: Monday, July 25, 2011 1:24 PM
>> Subject: Clutch/Shifting issue?
>>
>>
>> Hi Volks,
>>
>> 84 vanagon w/ 4 speed tranny-has always shifted well (144k) except when clutch cylinders leaked & got low on brake fluid- have replaced master brake & clutch slave cylinders in the last year/ 4+- years. No problems recently until the other day, couldn't downshift into 1st w/o turning off engine & starting w/ clutch fully depressed. Thot it was low brake fluid so fudged my way home & topped off resevoir which was only down 1/2" +-. Depressed clutch & brake several times & it seemed to work until today when I had to do the ole turn off/start engine again trick when ever I needed to get it in gear. Higher gears sometimes had same issue, but not always. WTF?
>>
>> It seems like a clutch issue? Could that happen suddenly? Or is it a shifting linkage issue? Hmmm, come to think of it, I believe that the clutch master cylinder has not ever been replaced. Can that puppy go w/o any signs of leaking, warning signs???
>>
>> Your kokua(help) would be appreciated.
>>
>> Mr. BZ-5 miles to home before I sleep=
>
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