Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2010 23:41:16 -0500
Reply-To: Dennis Haynes <d23haynes57@HOTMAIL.COM>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: Dennis Haynes <d23haynes57@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Resolved: Re: Oil pressure light comes on after about 7
minutes.
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikuMg-JDhANEUriLWNYjMBOyRCUMyaaM_Foub3i@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Wouldn't be the first nor the last bet I lost. However, if the filter did
fix it you need to understand how. Basically the filter or check valve in it
is providing enough back pressure to keep the switch satisfied. This 1-2 psi
drop is that much less pressure going to the bearings so you are masking a
problem. It is also possible that the pressure switch is just going bad.
Hand held pressure gauges are cheap enough and with a proper 10mm adapter
not that hard to use. Get some readings, cold, hot, etc. While I prefer
20w-50 or synthetic equivalents for those in colder climates the engine
should be able to run with 10w-40 without buzzer issues. You need to know
what you got. If you got oil pressure problems they have to be corrected
before a rod greets you at the top of the case.
BTW- not all Vanagon fires are fuel line related. As the engine blows all
that hot oil hitting those exhaust parts and anything else hotter than it
should be makes for a great long lasting fire.
Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com] On Behalf Of
Roland
Sent: Sunday, December 12, 2010 8:31 PM
To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
Subject: Re: Resolved: Re: Oil pressure light comes on after about 7
minutes.
Dennis,
First of all, with all due respect to Dennis tremendous knowledge of these
engines, and his relentless spirit in helping all of us....
I don't think overfilling was the cause, I have been checking if carefully
and repeatedly throughout this debug/test process and added some back after
the filter change today. It try to keep at about 1/2 way between the low
and high. When this problem first surfaced, I even pumped out some oil via
the filler to get it close to the low mark (I have a hand pump I use to fill
transmissions and such). Removing oil didn't remove the problem
Just checked again, it is about 75% between the low and high marks. Even
this is a strange phenomenon, since the last time I checked it was at about
50%. But that was only about 3 minutes after turning it off. Not sure if
maybe there is still oil draining down into the pan.
Roland
On Sun, Dec 12, 2010 at 3:25 PM, Dennis Haynes
<d23haynes57@hotmail.com>wrote:
> My bet is that the oil was overfilled. Replacing the filter removed 1-1.5
> cups to get you just below that threshold.
>
> Dennis
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com] On Behalf Of
> Roland
> Sent: Sunday, December 12, 2010 5:00 PM
> To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
> Subject: Resolved: Re: Oil pressure light comes on after about 7 minutes.
>
> Ok,
>
> So I installed the Mann filter and drove for 1/2 hour or a bit more,
uphill
> downhill, fast, slow. Not a hint of the oil light/buzzer. That makes the
> total of changes as the Mann filter plus 20W50 oil. So I am going to call
> this resolved since there isn't any further work I feel I should do unless
> it reoccurs.
>
> Is this conclusive? To Dennis' point, no definitely not, since we never
> identified the root cause, and really can't without the pressure gauge.
> There may have been some other cause that coincidentally went away during
> this time period when I was "exploring" solutions with the oil/filter
> changes. Not conclusive, but regardless it is pretty strong evidence that
> there is something about the filter brand and oil weight.
>
> Who knows, maybe it is the weather, it is 87 degrees here today --
> extremely
> annoying, since I'd rather be pushing the Syncro through 6 inches of new
> snow :).
>
> Thanks for all your help!
>
> Roland
>
> On Sun, Dec 12, 2010 at 9:32 AM, Roland <syncronicity1@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Hi Dennis,
> >
> > Thanks for the insights, and the answer is yes, I am very concerned
> > that there is a further problem beyond the oil viscosity and oil filter
> brand.
> >
> > The reason I am going down the path of the oil/filter is because that
> > is the only thing that has changed in the last few months, besides the
> > van has been sitting most of the time. Changed the oil/filter a few
> > months ago, van has hardly been driven since then, perhaps every 3
> > weeks for 3 minutes each time. Then a couple of weeks ago I attempted
> > a longer trip and the light/buzzer came on. So to be cost efficient,
> > and having heard all of the previous advice about filter / oil type, I
> > thought this might be a valid route to pursue.
> >
> > Not sure if the pressure switch is correct, but I've had this van for
> > over
> > 5 years and the switch has never been changed (and I've never had this
> > under pressure problem before).
> >
> > I am familiar with the overfill problem, since years ago the
> > light/buzzer came up on long uphills, so I had read up on the problem
> > at that time. The only related overfill suspicion in that the
> > dipstick tube is loose, and sometimes moves up a bit. Of course if
> > the tube is up, then the oil level would show lower than it is, and
> > thus cause overfill. But I know about this problem, and always make
> > sure to push it down to seat it correctly. The oil change I just did
> > last week to go to the 20W50 demonstrated there is no problem here,
> > didn't change the filter, but adding 4 quarts put the level exactly
> between the 2 marks so I think the dipstick is working.
> >
> > A couple of weeks ago, I read about the debris / sludge problem
> > clogging the screen. Yes, but I have no way to check for this (that I
> > know of) except the oil pressure test. This engine has been pretty
> clean.
> >
> > I am going to try the Mann filter sitting on the workbench and try
> > some test drives. Again because in this case the only thing that
> > changed was an oil/filter change, these are pretty low cost things to
> try.
> > I don't have a oil pressure gauge, that will be the next step, along
> > with proper debug.
> >
> > And no, I have not at all concluded that this oil type / filter are
> > the problem, we never know, it could be some other problem that is
> > completely a coincidence that it is associated with the recent
oil/filter
> change.
> >
> > Roland
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Dec 12, 2010 at 9:29 AM, Roland <syncronicity1@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Hi Dennis,
> >>
> >> Thanks for the insights, and the answer is yes, I am very concerned
> >> that there is a further problem beyond the oil viscosity and oil filter
> brand.
> >>
> >> The reason I am going down the path of the oil/filter is because that
> >> is the only thing that has changed in the last few months, besides
> >> the van has been sitting most of the time. Changed the oil/filter a
> >> few months ago, van has hardly been driven since then, perhaps every
> >> 3 weeks for 3 minutes each time. Then a couple of weeks ago I
> >> attempted a longer trip and the light/buzzer came on. So to be cost
> >> efficient, and having heard all of the previous advice about filter /
> >> oil type, I thought this might be a valid route to pursue.
> >>
> >> Not sure if the pressure switch is correct, but I've had this van for
> >> over
> >> 5 years and the switch has never been changed (and I've never had
> >> this under pressure problem before).
> >>
> >> I am familiar with the overfill problem, since years ago the
> >> light/buzzer came up on long uphills, so I had read up on the problem
> >> at that time. The only related overfill suspicion in that the
> >> dipstick tube is loose, and sometimes moves up a bit. Of course if
> >> the tube is up, then the oil level would show lower than it is, and
> >> thus cause overfill. But I know about this problem, and always make
> >> sure to push it down to seat it correctly. The oil change I just did
> >> last week to go to the 20W50 demonstrated there is no problem here,
> >> didn't change the filter, but adding 4 quarts put the level exactly
> between the 2 marks so I think the dipstick is working.
> >>
> >> A couple of weeks ago, I read about the debris / sludge problem
> >> clogging the screen. Yes, but I have no way to check for this (that
> >> I know of) except the oil pressure test. This engine has been pretty
> clean.
> >>
> >> I am going to try the Mann filter sitting on the workbench and try
> >> some test drives. Again because in this case the only thing that
> >> changed was an oil/filter change, these are pretty low cost things to
> try.
> >> I don't have a oil pressure gauge, that will be the next step, along
> >> with proper debug.
> >>
> >> And no, I have not at all concluded that this oil type / filter are
> >> the problem, we never know, it could be some other problem that is
> >> completely a coincidence that it is associated with the recent
> oil/filter
> change.
> >>
> >> Roland
> >>
> >>
> >> On Sun, Dec 12, 2010 at 7:34 AM, Dennis Haynes
> <d23haynes57@hotmail.com>wrote:
> >>
> >>> We need to kill this myth about Mann or Mahle filters being a fix
> >>> for the oil pressure buzzer syndrome. The oil buzzer is operated by
> >>> the high (.8
> >>> bar/11.3 psi) switch. This switch closes when oil pressure is
> sufficient.
> >>> If the switch is not closed when the engine is above ~2,000 rpm you
> >>> will get the light and buzzer. The light/buzzer will remain on until
> >>> this switch closes or you switch off the ignition. Now since you
> >>> are OK at start up your wiring and buzzer board are most likely
> >>> good. So what happens after few minutes is that your engine is
> >>> having trouble maintaining oil pressure or you have the wrong switch
> >>> in place. As for the filter, the high pressure switch is between the
> >>> pump and filter, not after. So the only thing a filter can do to
> >>> stop the buzzer is to be more restrictive which will actually reduce
> >>> flow to the engine. Now here are the things to check/test:
> >>>
> >>> Do you have the correct switch installed? Most parts books and ETKA
> >>> are confusing here. Most water cooled VW use a 1.8 bar switch. This
> >>> just won't work. Easy check! If your switch is white it is the wrong
> >>> one.
> >>> Oil viscosity-level. Well you say 20w-50, that is fine. Did you have
> >>> the temptation to overfill? The top mark on the dipstick is the full
> mark.
> >>> It
> >>> is the maximum, do exceed no matter what mark and for the Waterboxer
> >>> it is really overfilled. Oil change with filter, 4.5 quarts is
> >>> plenty.
> >>>
> >>> Is the engine loaded with sludge and other deposits? These can get
> >>> sucked down and into the suction inlet screen. Unfortunately for
> >>> Waterboxer this usually means teardown.
> >>>
> >>> A healthy engine should be able to get close to 10 psi/1,000 rpm.
> >>> There will be times when it will not. But if you can't maintain 11.3
> >>> at 2000 you have a problem. Test the oil pressure with a gauge.
> >>>
> >>> Dennis
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com] On
> >>> Behalf Of Roland
> >>> Sent: Saturday, December 11, 2010 4:32 PM
> >>> To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
> >>> Subject: Re: Oil pressure light comes on after about 7 minutes.
> >>>
> >>> Well, this is follow up from my post a few days ago (below).
> >>>
> >>> So, last weekend I drained and refilled with 20W50. I thought all
> >>> was going to be good, went a good long distance on the test drive
> >>> (to where my son is working at the christmas tree "store" in the
> >>> mall parking lot). All was well, but then suddenly on the way home
> >>> the oil light/buzzer came on again.
> >>> But this time it took much longer, maybe 10-15 minutes. Once it was
> >>> on, it behaved like before, kind of on-and-off depending on driving
> >>> conditions.
> >>>
> >>> So I got a Mann filter, haven't installed it yet.
> >>>
> >>> And then an urgent trip came up today, we have to get a tree, now!
> >>> "Ok honey, I'll risk it with the van". (What we do for our babes is
> >>> just amazing isn't it.) So I just took the exact same trip as I
> >>> mentioned above to the Xmas tree store at the mall and back again.
> >>> No oil light / buzzer at all. Van just sat in the driveway between
> >>> these 2 trips, maybe the oil rested and matured and is now ready to
> >>> behave. Kinda like putting your kid in "timeout".
> >>>
> >>> So this is getting puzzling. I will still put the Mann filter on
> >>> today and then more extensive test drives tomorrow.
> >>>
> >>> Roland
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Thu, Dec 2, 2010 at 7:21 PM, John Rodgers <inua@charter.net> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> > I would drain the oil, install a Mahle or Mann oil filter, refill
> >>> > with a good brand of 20W50 or 15W50 Mobil One or good diesel
> >>> > 15W40. If that doesn't fix it, you may have an internal problem,
> >>> > but if things were good before the oil change, this should probably
> fix it.
> >>> >
> >>> > John Rodgers
> >>> > Clayartist and Moldmaker
> >>> > 88'GL VW Bus Driver
> >>> > Chelsea, ALHttp://www.moldhaus.com
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> > On 12/2/2010 6:48 PM, Roland wrote:
> >>> >
> >>> > Hello folks,
> >>> >
> >>> > Very odd, the oil pressure light comes on after about 7 minutes of
> >>> driving.
> >>> > 1989, 2.1 WBX. It happens every time. If I let it sit, and get
> >>> > half-way cool, then it takes about 2-3 minutes for the pressure
> >>> > light/buzzer to come on. I think the timing is associated with
> >>> > the oil warming up. This has never happened before. I recently
> >>> > did an oil change, so maybe... And I have been doing some
> >>> > studying in the archives. So, I had bought one of those package
> >>> > deals at Autozone, you know for about $0.43 you get 5 quarts of oil
> and a filter.
> >>> >
> >>> > So, first, I took some oil out, it was near the high mark (in the
> >>> > past I have suffered the oil pressure light on long uphills, so I
> >>> > am familiar with this problem). The oil level is now close to the
> >>> > minimum mark. Problem remained.
> >>> >
> >>> > So it was a Bosch filter, and in the archives this oil filter is
> >>> > questionable. So today I replaced it with a Napa Gold, which is
> >>> > really a Wix, which was recommended, and the problem remains.
> >>> >
> >>> > The oil is still golden in color and clear,no sign of chocolate
> >>> > mousse or contamination.
> >>> >
> >>> > When I go downhill, at idle in neutral, the light/buzzer go out
> >>> > after about
> >>> > 7-10 seconds.
> >>> >
> >>> > The next step I am considering is to get some different oil. I
> >>> > know I am being a bad vanagon owner, but I can't even recall what
> >>> > oil or weight I used, pretty sure it was 40W or close to that.
> >>> > Probably Castrol or Pennzoil, just can't recall. So I am thinking
> >>> > of putting
> >>> some
> >>> 20W-50 in.
> >>> > Am in San Diego, really never drive it below 40 degrees, but this
> >>> > is not a high temp / high stress problem, we are in the 50s-60s each
> day.
> >>> >
> >>> > I think I have a "frothing oil" problem of some type. Another
> >>> > post said that "Castrol GTX 20w-50 is only $13 for 5 quarts at
> >>> > Wally World", maybe not anymore, but I haven't been there is a
while.
> >>> >
> >>> > Any comments? Thank you!
> >>> >
> >>> > Roland
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >
>
>
| 
