Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2010 08:35:41 -0400
Reply-To: Dennis Haynes <d23haynes57@HOTMAIL.COM>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: Dennis Haynes <d23haynes57@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: What's wrong with my 1.9 WBX engine?
In-Reply-To: <542048.49132.qm@web62306.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
The 1.9 is more prone to worn main bearings and the bearings pounding out
the case and becoming loose. Especially from being lugged or over revved.
Bad rod or cam bearings also reduce oil pressure. In theory the pump really
is not a wear part. It could wear if debris go in it and I have seen the
shaft drive tab wear and even break off. It is also possible that the relief
valve piston is stuck. But again this takes a dirty non maintained engine to
get it that gummed up.
Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com] On Behalf Of
M. Jade
Sent: Friday, June 04, 2010 12:15 AM
To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
Subject: Re: What's wrong with my 1.9 WBX engine?
Unless it was touched by the dealer who did the head gasket job about 10
years ago. I don't think the oil pump was ever serviced. The engine was
never been split at all. I doubt it was ever dropped either. I believe the
dealer did the head gasket job without dropping the engine.
I am wondering what causes it to drop oil pressure like that if it is not
caused by an aging oil pump. Could it be oil overheating? But what causes
the oil to overheat? It will take only a few miles driving one the freeway
to have the symptom appearing on the next red light stop.
The engine runs really well by the way. It is louder due to aging muffler
(replaced once so far). It is very responsive to pedal. I really like this
Vanagon. It does not have a great top speed. But it sure runs well on trails
that do not allow you to drive too fast.
Thanks a lot for your tech tips. They are absolutely great. Thanks to
everyone else who responded too.
--- On Wed, 6/2/10, Dennis Haynes <d23haynes57@hotmail.com> wrote:
From: Dennis Haynes <d23haynes57@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: What's wrong with my 1.9 WBX engine?
To: "'M. Jade'" <tinho2010@YAHOO.COM>, vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
Date: Wednesday, June 2, 2010, 8:01 PM
Except for improper assembly by someone else, I have "never" taken care of a
water
boxer oil pressure problem by replacing the oil pump. An oil pressure test
and
good analysis will tell all. An oil condition test may also reveal if the
bearings are worn out.
Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com] On Behalf Of
M. Jade
Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 2010 1:08 AM
To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
Subject: Re: What's wrong with my 1.9 WBX engine?
I know short driving is not good for the engine. I have no choice because
that's all I need for my daily driving mostly. That's why I don't drive it
everyday. I put some mileage on the Honda too.
The GM certified coolant is what's available and not that expensive. I have
used it for several years. If it is not a wrong one I will just use it. It's
good that it will last 5 years. My mechanic confirmed to me that it needs
not replaced until 5 years in the system.
I will have the oil pressure checked. I think it will come out low. I will
need to find out if the oil pump needs service or it is the engine that is
quitting. By the way, when I changed the oil 2 weeks ago I did not see metal
particles in the oil. I hope this means it is the oil pump that is weak.
Thanks everyone's response. I will be back to report what I find out in a
couple of weeks.
--- On Mon, 5/31/10, Scott Daniel - Turbovans <scottdaniel@turbovans.com>
wrote:
From: Scott Daniel - Turbovans <scottdaniel@turbovans.com>
Subject: Re: Re: What's wrong with my 1.9 WBX engine?
To: "M. Jade" <tinho2010@YAHOO.COM>, vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
Date: Monday, May 31, 2010, 9:35 PM
hi again,
short trips are hell on engines.
You should be able to take only short trips on any engine for a long, long
time, but that is extremely rough on them.
Until it's fully warmed up, more wear than is desireble is occuring.
I have seen a head gasket blown on a Suzuki Samura in under 30K miles...
just from very short trip operation only.
same for an 87 wateboxer vanagons ....running terribly , smoking etc.
When I got it to my shop and looked at it carefully....I knew what was going
on. That poor van got driven in town, in the winter for about 8 blocks, then
shop for a while, then 8 blocks home. They really must be driven until fully
warmed up, as much as possible.
your coolant sounds like GM's version of Dexcool maybe.
Dexcool is orange, and related to GM I believe anyway. I have it on one of
my cars. Would not normally use it.
I have not found that the aluminum engine and cylinder heads need exotic
coolant...
though I have a trick/addtive that really helps as a rust inhibitor, water
pump lube, been doing that for decades on cars and vanagons.
I doubt 'the wrong coolant' could contribute much to making oil hotter.
I will tell you a story about engine wear and driving up a long, long hill
in the summer with a big load...
my 1970 Mercedes Benz 250 sedan Vanagon tow car. I've towed vanagons up to
1.000 miles at a time with Ursula.
Going north out of Susanville, Ca there is about an 8 mile grade. I was
towing a vanagon up that hill, on a hot summer day.
the coolant temp just kept going up and up and up.
( Dexcool in that car btw ...if you read the side of the bottle it says
boiling point at 50/50 is way up there, 253 degrees F I think ) .
So I'm climbing up this long grade,
and didn't think I had a coolant leak, just too much load on an old
radiator, and just kept pushin' her. I knew to stop would mean boiling over
anyway, so hoped to make it to the top. And , no kidding, the temp guage was
maxed ...100 % pegged.
But, 1/4 mile short of the top, she just flamed out. Fuel vaporization
....vapor lock.
Got things cooled down, fuel turned back to a liquid, got going again. Ran
out of gas later that night and everything, great adventuere.
Got back to home base the next day. Fuel pump was a little leaky, but the
whole car engine and cooling system seemed fine. Pegged the temp guage at
about 250 F and she didn't boil over, and didn't blow the head gasket, or
burst a hose. I was sure impressed ! ( that car owes me nothing btw
.....owned her forever )
A year later, I get Usula ready for another vanagon tow.
I hadn't changed the oil filter for a while, so did an oil and filter
change.
the oil filter was packed, almost, with fine copper.
That can only be rod bearing material...or it certainly fits that that's rod
bearing metal.
Often if there is metal in trans or gear oil you can see it in the drain pan
even.
She still runs fine too, no rod knock, decent oil pressure, but I am pretty
sure those rod bearings are very worn. I put them in in 1987...I guess I got
my value out of them.
I hope that didn't happen to your engine !
scott
----- Original Message ----- From: "M. Jade" <tinho2010@YAHOO.COM>
To: <vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM>
Sent: Monday, May 31, 2010 7:45 PM
Subject: Re: What's wrong with my 1.9 WBX engine?
The oil pump was never serviced before. The engine is original, never
rebuilt. The head gaskets were done by a VW dealer. The heads are still the
original.
Is it likely a problem in the oil pressure regulator thing at the lower
corner at the bottom of the engine? My Beetles had that thing in the engine.
They never had any problems though.
I think the engine sounds fine. I do not hear any unusual clicking noise
other than when the lifter collapsed and clattered for a while.
Well, I forgot to mention that I am not using VW blue coolant right now. I
use the red GM certified coolant at about 50/50 coolant water ratio. The
label says it's good for aluminum cylinder head and change every 5 years.
Can this cause the oil to overheat? I was in a coastal mountain road a month
ago going like 5 - 10 MPH uphill for about half an hour. The coolant
temperature really went up a lot. The needle on the gauge went up passing
3/4 of the scale and the radiator fan kicked in and remained on for a long
while. It was still quite normal I think. It's supposed to be like that. It
was always like that before. But is it a bad coolant to use? Does it have
less heat absorbing capacity that causes the cylinder head to overheat thus
followed by oil overheating?
I have driven my Vanagon for short distances, like less than 5 miles, a
couple of times a day for many years. Sometimes I just parked it for several
days and drove my little Honda instead. I am surprised by the problem
indeed.
--- On Mon, 5/31/10, Scott Daniel - Turbovans <scottdaniel@turbovans.com>
wrote:
From: Scott Daniel - Turbovans <scottdaniel@turbovans.com>
Subject: Re: Re: What's wrong with my 1.9 WBX engine?
To: "M. Jade" <tinho2010@YAHOO.COM>, vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
Date: Monday, May 31, 2010, 7:15 PM
hi.
I haven't seen that clogging of the oil pump pick up screen myself, though
I'm sure that's possible.
You could sneak a peek inside the sump by removing the oil filler tube.
Might not be able to see much that way ...but 'maybe' it could reveal
something.
in my world, I never find it necessary to 'service' waterboxer oil pumps.
I suppose they can get worn some , but I've never had a problem there
myself.
the cover gasket, on the oil pump, is an extra thing gasket that seals the
outer cover of the oil pump to the oil pump body.
That cover is the end plate for the two gears in there.
If someone put in a normal thickness gasket there, the clearance on the end
plate would be too large to the gears.
But someone would have to not know what they were doing to do that mistake.
And it's not something that's normally even messed with in my opinion,
not that some people may improve waterboxer oil pressure by looking into the
oil pump situation.
you need to remove the left lower tin/rock protection cover from the left
cylinder head.
the oil pressure switch where you'd measure oil pressure is under that
cover, between push rod tubes.
Those lower tins can be hard to get off sometimes, as they are secured at
the top by exhaust studs or nuts, and those are rusted sometimes etc.....if
taking things apart on your engine is not something you usually do , might
leave that to your shop technician.
Scott
----- Original Message ----- From: "M. Jade" <tinho2010@YAHOO.COM>
To: <vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM>
Sent: Monday, May 31, 2010 6:59 PM
Subject: Re: What's wrong with my 1.9 WBX engine?
Oil overheating is a real possibility. The oil level is fine. When the oil
was changed the oil level was just at the low mark on the stick. I changed
oil and filled up to about mid point between the marks.
I never had the oil pump serviced. I don't think the dealer touched it when
they did the head gaskets 10 years ago. I believe the dealer did it without
even dropping the engine. So its internal is really never touched by anyone.
How do I check the oil pressure? Oil pressure gauge is available at most car
parts places. If it is easy to do I will check it myself. Is it a job
belonging to a Vanagon WBX specialist? Is it likely that the oil pump need
servicing?
Wrong cover gasket? Do you mean cylinder head cover gaskets? They were
replaced for sure. Can leaking head cover gasket causing oil pressure
problem? This would be easy to fix.
I have been using Bosch and Fram oil filters from nearby parts stores. They
have worked fine for many years. I don't feel that the oil filter is causing
the problem. I have changed it at least twice.
Thanks for your reply. I will have the engine oil pressure checked soon.
--- On Mon, 5/31/10, Dennis Haynes <d23haynes57@hotmail.com> wrote:
From: Dennis Haynes <d23haynes57@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: What's wrong with my 1.9 WBX engine?
To: "'M. Jade'" <tinho2010@YAHOO.COM>, vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
Date: Monday, May 31, 2010, 6:16 PM
The fact that you are getting lifter clatter along with the oil pressure
light indicates that you indeed have an oil pressure problem. Since this is
an older engine with possibly an unknown maintenance history and a lot of
down time it is possible that the oil inlet screen is getting block with
carbon and other debris including silicone from that head gasket job. I have
seen a number of 19 develop this issue, some with well under 100K. This is
elusive as after shut down the stuff falls off and everything will be normal
even during oil pressure testing. Normal driving sloshing etc. will make the
stuff suck up to the screen and block it again.
The 1.9 is also notorious for the main and cam bearing journals wiping out.
An oil pressure gauge will show this as soon as the engine warms up. Has
anyone serviced the oil pump? The wrong cover gasket will also cause oil
pressure problems.
Now for the big question, how is the oil level? Since it is recovering after
a few miles of low speed driving it could be the oil is overheating. The
most common cause of oil over heating on the Waterboxer is overfilling. The
top mark is not the full mark. It is the maximum do not ever exceed no
matter what mark. 4.5 quarts with filter at oil change time is plenty. Oil
will stay cooler near the lower mark.
Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com] On Behalf Of
M. Jade
Sent: Monday, May 31, 2010 6:56 PM
To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
Subject: What's wrong with my 1.9 WBX engine?
My engine recently developed a problem I can not fix. It is a 85 Vanagon
with a 1.9 WBX engine with 140k miles. There was work done to the cylinder
head gasket about 10 years ago. It runs very well still. I made a 200 miles
trip yesterday and everything appeared OK except this problem.
Every time I got off a freeway and came to a red light the oil light would
either blink or turn on steadily. Continue to drive a few blocks the symptom
would go away. A few times one or more of hydraulic lifters would collapse
and make clapping noise. They would recover if continued driving for a a
minute. Temp gauge showed normal. There was no coolant leak or anything. It
ran absolutely no problem if drove back on to freeway. In fact it ran very
well with plenty of power yesterday during the 200 mile trip.
Is it developing a serious problem now? I am running 10w40 oil. But changing
to 20w50 made no difference. I have had two oil filter changes already. No
change. I am not ready to give up this engine at only 140k miles. I don't
think it is an oil pressure sensor issue. At one time I was in a stop and go
situation for a while the oil light came on. So it does not have to be
driven on the freeway to have the problem.
This engine has been very reliable with no problems for the past 10 years. I
don't drive it much but do occasionally took it to trips of a couple of
hundred miles. Am I dealing with an engine that is ready to quit? Thanks for
any suggestions.
