Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2009 19:16:03 -0700
Reply-To: Don Hanson <dhanson928@GMAIL.COM>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: Don Hanson <dhanson928@GMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Faintly disturbing noises beginning behind...('84 inline gas
VW with 5sp)
In-Reply-To: <03ba01ca1ede$47b556c0$6501a8c0@PROSPERITY>
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Tires: Mine are getting a bit thin, but they are still not weird in any
way...I checked em visually and with my hands before I went blitzing down
I-5 to Albany. It is a rotational sound, not motor. As I said, seems most
noticable under "maintain speed" or neutral throttle...no load but not
coasting. I didn't try the motor off...that is good, I will do that.
The shaft movement tests sound like what I shall do first, plus the sound
test....I use a section of fancy chrome towel bar I have left over from a
rich person's house I once worked on to listen to stuff and I also use the
same piece as a cheater bar..no lightweight plated crap for that millionaire
in HIS house.....
A new battery for my infared thermo-gun is in order and yes, I do travel
with my least-bad CV joint in my spares anyhow..Water pump would be noisy
when I rev without moving...not that..I didn't think of the front WBs..but I
guess I should look there also...sound is difficult to pinpoint exactly
sometimes...
How about the motor and tranny mounts? That could be causing something
like what I hear...
Dang, wish I had a real garage with a lift, etc...
Thanks all,
Don Hanson
On Sun, Aug 16, 2009 at 6:58 PM, Scott Daniel - Turbovans <
scottdaniel@turbovans.com> wrote:
> feathered tires can make noises for sure.
> re water pump .........given Don's general smarts about things automotive
> and vanagon-tive , I'd expect that he would know to identify that it's an
> engine only noise, as it would do that in neutral, van not moving,
> 'sometimes' that is.
> He made it sound like an 'under way only' sound though.
>
> now you just made me think of .....speaking of noise sources on the engine
> -
> I find quite a few alternators with rumbly bearings in them.
> Most noticeable when turning the alt. by hand after removing the belt. Not
> detectible otherwise, sometimes. The ole listening stick comes to mind for
> those ........things with bearings in the engine - water pump, alternator,
> etc.
>
> Does the noise come from the engine reving in neutreal, or does it do it
> only in 'in flight' ??
> Another trick of course is to shut off the engine at 60 mph or so, then
> listen and feel.
> If it's an 'under load' only noise, that won't work of course. Coasting
> with engine off ( manual trans only ) you can feel and listen for
> everything
> besides the engine. Not good to do in an automtic, Never coast any
> automatic to be sure to not do any damage to it. They're not made for that.
> Manual trans doesn't care of course.
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jim Felder" <jim.felder@gmail.com>
> To: "Scott Daniel - Turbovans" <scottdaniel@turbovans.com>
> Cc: <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
> Sent: Sunday, August 16, 2009 6:34 PM
> Subject: Re: Faintly disturbing noises beginning behind...('84 inline gas
> VW
> with 5sp)
>
>
> Tires that are on their way out will drive you crazy with noises like this.
>
> Jim
>
> On Sun, Aug 16, 2009 at 8:29 PM, Scott Daniel -
> Turbovans<scottdaniel@turbovans.com> wrote:
>
>> Here's how I test cv joint play with everything assembled :
>> First, with van ( or bus if you prefer ) jacked up, grab an axle and slide
>> it left and right.
>> it should slide easily. This movement is the balls sliding in their
>> grooves - you want them to slide nicely of course.
>>
>> next, ......in neutral with parking brake off, hold the axle firmly with a
>> large pliers or vice grips. Hold it from ratating while you try to turn
>> the
>> trans flange on the inner end, and wheel/tire on the outer end. The idea
>> being to discover rotational slope in the CV's. There's not suppossed to
>> be
>> any.
>> 'some' is OK. If you hear clicking when you do that, it's probably worn
>> and
>> dry in there. Or, hold the wheel and rotate the axle.......just testing
>> for
>> rotational slop.
>>
>> I find that as long as they have good grease in them, even with play, then
>> can work nicely.
>> I recently had a nice New Zealander bloke here in my shop for a clutch
>> issue
>> I think - clutch and muffler, something like that. . During that process
>> ........we found one of his innner cv's with more slop that I have ever
>> seen
>> in a CV - put it wasn't making noise at all, and that's not why the van
>> even
>> came here. We put in a much better good used one. Might have swapped an
>> outer to the innner position too.
>>
>> I just asked today if anyone besides me thinks that the amount of grease
>> suppled with a boot or cv kit is enough. I have seen MANY cv joints after
>> a
>> few years that didn't seem to have enough grease in them - like the grease
>> evaporates almost. I use black moly grease.......what I call 'black
>> slimey'
>> .......I put in a pretty generous amount, filling the flange areas with
>> grease, and plenty pushed into the balls of the cv with a putty knife, and
>> some in the boot.
>>
>> I appreciate the creativity of using good used balls in a tired cv joint,
>> and usually surfaces mate to each other, and doing that I would regard as
>> a
>> 'gotta keep moving and this is the only way to do it with what we have
>> availiable right now' type of repair. I keep used CV joints around, and
>> would just pick out the best one I have, and use that instead. I sometimes
>> carry a one good used CV on long trips, as a spare. And I use a pretty
>> generous amount of that black moly grease i them, and they seem to last
>> 'forever' to me that way.
>> Based on what I read, I get the impression that many vanagon folk have a
>> vanagon, and no used or spare parts for it. ( I expect a slew of members
>> telling how many good used and spare parts they keep around, now that I
>> said
>> that. ) But I'm always reading about what parts to replace with new ones,
>> .....
>> and half the time I'm thinking, 'well just try another one that you have
>> around' . Or just put on another good used one that's not fully throgh its
>> life cycle yet.
>>
>> Don, my attention would be drawn to the cv's that had 'foreign' balls put
>> in
>> them.
>> I most often find inner cv joints to give problems or wear, , more than
>> outers, generally.
>>
>> oh, one more thing. Running the van in the air and listening with a
>> listening device, on all the things that move, or turn, or do whatever
>> their
>> thing is.
>> Solid flat floor and good jack stands are required, and it can be a bit
>> dangerous, but .......
>> I like a nice long hardwood stick, and I hold one end against the bearing
>> hub say, and the other against the flap of my ear, and listen.
>> You'd be surprised at what you can hear.
>> bearing rumble, injectors clicking, alternator bearings. insdie the
>> distributor .....you name it, if it moves internally, you can listen to it
>> this way. ( can't do CV's of course ) .
>> also............take your IR temp gun, and start looking for wheel
>> bearings
>> that are hotter than the rest of the wheel bearings, that sort of thing.
>>
>> 'Gathering clues' is the point. When something jumps out...........that's
>> where you direct your attention. And sounds like your cv's would like some
>> attention and love anyway.
>> scott
>> www.turbovans.com
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Don Hanson" <dhanson928@GMAIL.COM>
>> To: <vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM>
>> Sent: Sunday, August 16, 2009 5:52 PM
>> Subject: Faintly disturbing noises beginning behind...('84 inline gas VW
>> with 5sp)
>>
>>
>> The noises are faint...and not really very disturbing yet..in fact, I may
>>> be
>>> imagining the noise or my ears may be deceiving me altogether. But I have
>>> another road trip planned for next weekend, involving some rapid and
>>> somewhat sustained high velocity back-country driving. For my own peace
>>> of
>>> mind, I want to check out a few things.
>>> This weekend, Saturday I boogied down the interstates about 300miles
>>> round
>>> trip to a bike race in Albany, Or. Going about 70mph for 2.5hrs each way.
>>> Sunday, another bike race up on Mt Hood..a short but steep commute, again
>>> at
>>> fairly high speeds..Not on the bike..in the van.. Lots of time to sit
>>> there, listening to all that whirring and buzzing going on during all
>>> that boring interstate driving...Didn't hear much this morning (quite
>>> cool
>>> at elevation and a fairly steady long uphill from sea level to 4400',
>>> then
>>> back downhill to home) But this morning, I had out my "Hawk-ears" and
>>> every
>>> seam in the pavement was drawing my attention....
>>> At full cruising speed I can't hear much but when I cut back to loafing
>>> along speeds I "think" I am hearing some extra mechanical noises from the
>>> rear end of the bus/Van (for all you 'purists' who say a Vanagon is not a
>>> bus). I 'opine' something in the drive line..The trans seems fine.. no
>>> shifting or gearing problems..recent new Redline no metal
>>> filings...Probably
>>> not that. The wheels feel right..no play when you do a "wheel bearing
>>> push/pull test. Brakes redone about 5k miles ago, so that probably is not
>>> what I "may be" hearing. It is no different accelerating or
>>> decelerating..maybe slightly more pronounced under 'steady throttle' but
>>> no
>>> real load.....or maybe I can just hear it better...if indeed I am really
>>> hearing something significant and worrisome..
>>> I did the CV joints last fall, maybe 15k miles ago..I am thinking it may
>>> be one (or more) of those. I had on hand and installed only two new ones,
>>> replaced two that were obviously shot. The others were kinda
>>> questionable...a little 'heat-blue' with some minor 'galling' and
>>> pitting
>>> on a couple of the balls, which I changed out with the better ones from
>>> the
>>> left over CVs. The cages looked serviceable... Reassembled everything
>>> and
>>> it sounded good (maybe till now?) and drove smooth. But now I am
>>> recalling
>>> those 'iffy' parts and thinking that may be what is starting to draw my
>>> 'ear'.
>>> Is there some way to 'test' the CVs without taking them out and looking
>>> again? That was a messy and long job that I would rather do (completely,
>>> this time) when I have all the parts in hand and no 'pending bicycle
>>> event
>>> deadline' like I have for next weekend. I will probably order ahead two
>>> more CVs and just plan on putting them in sometime soon. Until then, can
>>> I
>>> stick the van up on jackstands and run it in gear or push pull the axles,
>>> or
>>> pry them up and down to get an idea whether I might be about to lose a
>>> wheel
>>> or something? I am not worried about that really...the CV joints were
>>> much
>>> worse sounding before...but I can't recall if I ever heard just this
>>> 'exact
>>> sound' ..
>>> Anyone have any quick and dirty diagnostic tricks for something like
>>> this?..
>>> Thanks,
>>> Don Hanson
>>>
>>
>>
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