Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 21:35:49 -0700
Reply-To: Gary Bawden <goldfieldgary@GMAIL.COM>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: Gary Bawden <goldfieldgary@GMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: vanagon Digest - 12 Jun 2008 (#2008-626)
In-Reply-To: <4851f0e8.9e03be0a.2c7a.ffffe711SMTPIN_ADDED@mx.google.com>
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On 6/12/08, Automatic digest processor <LISTSERV@gerry.vanagon.com> wrote:
> There are 6 messages totalling 383 lines in this issue.
>
> Topics of the day:
>
> 1. cylinder heads for my 84 westy
> 2. Neil's from scratch motor swap...and pre-Friday ramble (2)
> 3. Aerodynamics for MPG
> 4. Neil's Engine Conversion. Progress Update.
> 5. photo of vanagon fire
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 21:14:23 -0500
> From: Max Wellhouse <dimwittedmoose@CFU.NET>
> Subject: Re: cylinder heads for my 84 westy
>
> I've always been nervous putting new liners pistons and rings on an
> engine with old rod bearings. The tight tolerances and extra load
> on the next oldest link in the drive train can easily spell failed
> rod bearing and then the engine is pretty much toast.
>
> My thinking was that I would give the guy a break since he's tight on
> cash. even if the engine only lasts another year, chances oare his
> investment in the heads will not go to waste. The worst he'll be out
> is the cost of the gasket set. Dropping another $200 in the jugs and
> then having it blow, that's really going to hurt.
>
> DM&FS
>
> At 11:22 AM 6/12/2008, David Kao wrote:
>>$150 for a pair of used but in good condition heads is sure a good
>>alternative while a new pair costs anywhere from $800 - $1000.
>>As long as there are no cracks you can do a good valve job on them
>>yourself and they will work very well for many more years to come.
>>
>>If you still have some budget after spending the $150 you may want
>>to consider a new liner set from Cofap. This has proven to be critical
>>to my engine I worked on last year. Before I replaced the liners my
>>83.5 was powerless and consumed oil. It still had fairly reasonable
>>gas mileage but strangely enough that it was very poor in climbing
>>any hills.
>>
>>I pulled the engine, did a valve job myself and put in a new set of
>>liners. After 3k - 4k miles of breaking-in the engine is back to
>>normal. It went to Yosemite and back last month and averaged 21.5
>>MPG. It runs entirely different from before the engine work. My cost
>>was well below $500 if I remember it correctly.
>>
>>My point is while you had the heads off take the opportunity to replace
>>the liners. It was available on eBay for around $200. I saw it once at
>>$125 plus shipping and it was a new Cofap set. You will need a gasket
>>set for around $100 too.
>>
>>David
>>
>>
>>--- Max Wellhouse <dimwittedmoose@CFU.NET> wrote:
>>
>> > If you can be a wekek or two patient, I'll have a good set of used
>> > heads I'd let go for $150. That would give you some financial room
>> > to do a valve job if you wanted. I feel for you as I've been there
>> > and done that.
>> >
>> > DM&FS
>> >
>> > At 05:07 AM 6/11/2008, Frank Condelli wrote:
>> > >In a message dated 10/06/2008 10:10:46 P.M. Central Standard Time,
>> > >LISTSERV@GERRY.VANAGON.COM writes:
>> > >
>> > >I just pulled the heads off of my 84 westy (first time to pull
>> heads off any
>> > > car)
>> > >I did it with the engine still in,
>> > >the piston sleeves would not come off so i pulled them out, 2
>> with each head.
>> > >Once i beat the sleeves off with a wooden block and a hammer, i
>> > > noticed a
>> > >hair line cracks between all 4 sets of valves.
>> > >
>> > >sooooo... the question is,
>> > >where do i get new or rebuilt heads for the lowest price.
>> > >cause this sucks and i don't have much money.
>> > >let me know,
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >Shawn, the heads may be good, the best way to find out is to
>> get them to a
>> > >machine shop and have them leak tested. If the cracks are
>> leaking they will
>> > >declare them scrap. If the valves are leaking they will reseat
>> or replace
>> > >them. I have new AMC heads listed on my _Vanagon Items Forsale_
>> > >(http://members.aol.com/Fkc43/sales.htm) webpage > Cylinder head,
>> > >1.9/2.1, AMC, 1001, 025
>> > >101 065 - $475.00. If your gonna keep that engine and that van
>> > >for any good
>> > >length of time I would highly recommend you install two new AMC heads
>> > > -
>> > >UNLESS - the bottom end is near the end of it's life. NOW - how
>> > >you gonna get
>> > >the cylinders back on the pistons without breaking the rings
>> ? I just know
>> > >your gonna ask that question next. That is tricky to do with the
>> > >engine still
>> > >in the van. The right way is to remove the piston pins which entails
>> > >removing lots of cooling tubes and the waterpump as the pistons are
>> > >first inserted
>> > >into the barrels then attached to the rods. Doing that under
>> the van is not
>> > >easy. The other way is to find or make some sort of ring compressor
>> > > that
>> > >will compress the rings to get the barrels on then be able to extract
>> > > the
>> > >compressor - GOOD LUCK ! AND, are you gonna replace the rings
>> > >while your at it ?
>> > >Then you need to hone the cylinders. Have you checked the
>> cylinders to see
>> > >if they are within spec or have become oval as 75% of the ones
>> I have checked
>> > >? If they are oval then trying to get new rings to seat will
>> not work very
>> > >well. You'd be better off using the old rings or getting a set of new
>> > >pistons and cylinders - now your into the big bucks !
>> > >
>> > >Cheers,
>> > >
>> > >Frank Condelli
>> > >Almonte, Ontario, Canada
>> > >'87 Westy & Lionel Trains (_Collection for sale_
>> > >(http://members.aol.com/Fkc43/trainsal.htm) )
>> > >_Frank Condelli & Associates_
>> (http://members.aol.com/Fkc43/busindex.html)
>> > >- Vanagon/Vanagon Westfalia Service in the Ottawa Valley
>> > >_Vanagon Stainless Steel Exhaust Systems_
>> > >(http://members.aol.com/Fkc43/exhaust.htm)
>> > >_BusFusion_ (http://members.aol.com/BusFusion/bfhome.htm) a VW Camper
>> > >camping event, Almonte, ON, June 12 ~ 15, 2008
>> >
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 19:53:03 -0700
> From: Don Hanson <dhanson@GORGE.NET>
> Subject: Neil's from scratch motor swap...and pre-Friday ramble
>
> Quite a bit of work, eh? But you are getting there now. I still wonder
> why you chose that route but then it's all good anyhow.
> I was looking more closely at the conversion in my Van...the Diesel motor
> hangers...specifically. People always tell me..Oh yah, those kits, if you
> can find em are about $600 bucks, if you don't already have a diesel van and
> have to buy the whole kit...(for putting an inline four gasser in exactly
> like the original diesel vans were installed.) But looking at the motor
> carrier bars in mine...these are dead simple. You could have some made at a
> race chassis shop for about $100 bucks...Just two bends in some steel tubing
> with plates welded to the ends. A good chassis builder or someone who
> builds roll cages could make a pair in an hour, max.... The motor mounts,
> from the carrier bars to the block, those are cast and you might be better
> looking for junkers or perhaps those are still available as aftermarket
> parts. You could probably also make those..but not so easy as the engine
> carrier bars... The Kennedy Engineering adapter plate...again not too
> expensive..
> The best part of doing a conversion like this is that it has been widely
> done before and you could likely find one to copy pretty easily or borrow a
> diesel van and copy that..No 'reverse engineering' needed.
>
> Recently, the rear end of my SO's 70's beamer 2002 rusted pretty much
> off...The shock mount and spring perch was a stamped extension of the
> trunk...and it rotted away leaving a rear wheel kinda floppy...She really
> loves that car so I took it to my local race fabricating shop and we figured
> out a new rear suspension...a couple of tubes, some plates, etc. Ol' Russ
> welded and bent...and now she is happy again for just $175! Works better
> than new, too, except stuff in the trunk gets all wet and dirty if the road
> is wet...
> The point being, with a bit of creativity, you can do almost anything to
> these simple old German cars, and they are certainly worthwhile to keep on
> the road. Almost any "normal" American, what with our "disposable mind-set"
> would have just paid to have the cute little Beamer box smooshed...But not
> Marie..."I just put a rebuilt engine in that car" she said (almost 4 years
> ago) "And it's got a new tire!"..."can't you fix it? You built a racecar
> that goes 200mph, you should be able to fix a simple bit of
> rust...."....Yes, dear...Sure, honey...
> Don Hanson
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 23:18:08 -0400
> From: Chris S <szpejankowski@GMAIL.COM>
> Subject: Aerodynamics for MPG
>
> This is part 2 in my aerodynamic MPG ramblings (Yes, I've already slowed
> down and got 600 miles out of the last 12 gallon tank in my Beetle TDI)...
>
> We've covered belly pans..
>
> What about using one of those old-fashioned bug shields you used to see
> mounted on the front of old trucks? Those upright pieces of lexan perched
> on the front of the hood? Why not find one that's close in width to the
> Vanagon and mount it under the front bumper? I'm sure that would keep a lot
> of air from getting under the vehicle where it encounters front suspension
> components etc. This would be more ideal for the taller '84-'85 Vanagons
> than the later GL lowriders, of course.
>
> http://www.thebugshield.net/Photo_Gallery/IMAG016A.JPG
>
> Chris S.
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 20:20:43 -0700
> From: Jake de Villiers <crescentbeachguitar@GMAIL.COM>
> Subject: Re: Neil's Engine Conversion. Progress Update.
>
> Hey congratulations Neil! That's a real accomplishment.
>
> On Thu, Jun 12, 2008 at 6:06 PM, neil N <musomuso@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi all.
>>
>> I was so excited to hear the Jetta engine run with the exhaust all
>> mounted, (homemade + Walker "Quiet" model Vanagon style muffler....
>> and 2 custom muffler brackets!) I thought I'd report in about the
>> progress on my conversion.
>>
>> It sounds great! Quite quiet in spite of the shorter exhaust run,
>> idles steady, revs up nicely, though I think the lack of air filter is
>> affecting the mid band sustained RPM's after gunning it from
>> idle...... (the MAF is likely getting too much air flow) but I
>> digress.
>>
>> The filling of the cooling system went very well. I used this
>> ("stolen" from the Samba list):
>>
>> http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=234192&highlight=cooling
>>
>> It worked great. Can't say enough good things about it. It helped as I
>> didn't have enough room to jack up rear of my Westy. The only problem
>> using it (as a newb) was that I filled it too much at the end and when
>> revved up, coolant barfed back up the pipe. Niiiiiice.
>>
>> This is ok, as I consider this a christening of my Westy as a water
>> cooled beast. --- ;^)
>>
>> Figured out the position of heater core hoses. (I had it right the
>> first time but as a former air cooled owner, had no idea how they went
>> in)
>>
>> And.......
>>
>> The heat!!!! REAL heat!!!
>>
>> Distant are the memories of newby camping in eastern WA scampering to
>> find a campsite... at 9 PM ..... late spring.... still some snow on
>> the road higher up and me with no heat desperately "white knuckling
>> it" trying to find the site that wasn't! (actually I found a nice
>> little lake side camp site)
>>
>> Still have to install the gas tank, and wire up the rad fan, heater
>> control cable and a few other niggling details, but things are lookin'
>> good.
>>
>> It starts/restarts after a few turns, the engine sounds fine, clutch
>> engages in all gears, there's no leaks, rad got warm-hot, pressure in
>> system, upper rad hose hotter than the bottom one which warmed up up
>> in due course. All good so far.
>>
>> And did I mention the REAL HEAT? --- ;^)
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Neil.
>>
>>
>> --
>> Neil Nicholson '81 JettaWesty "Jaco
>>
>> http://groups.google.com/group/vanagons-with-vw-inline-4-cylinder-gas-engines
>> http://web.mac.com/tubaneil
>> http://tubaneil.googlepages.com/
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Jake
> 1984 Vanagon GL
> 1986 Westy Weekender "Dixie"
> Crescent Beach, BC
> www.crescentbeachguitar.com
> http://subyjake.googlepages.com/mydixiedarlin%27
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 23:21:38 -0400
> From: Chris S <szpejankowski@GMAIL.COM>
> Subject: Re: photo of vanagon fire
>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> stumbled upon this on
>>>> flickr: http://www.flickr.com/photos/leifv/2567731881/ You can
>>>> click the "all sizes" link if you want to see it bigger.
>>>> Edward
>>>>
>>>>
> Great caption: "your`e fired"
> Let us take a moment to pray for our education system.
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 20:24:29 -0700
> From: Jake de Villiers <crescentbeachguitar@GMAIL.COM>
> Subject: Re: Neil's from scratch motor swap...and pre-Friday ramble
>
> You've made the engine carrier - now you need the special oil pan and
> pickup, the bell housing and the starter, among other things. $600 is a
> bargain Don.
>
> On Thu, Jun 12, 2008 at 7:53 PM, Don Hanson <dhanson@gorge.net> wrote:
>
>> Quite a bit of work, eh? But you are getting there now. I still wonder
>> why you chose that route but then it's all good anyhow.
>> I was looking more closely at the conversion in my Van...the Diesel motor
>> hangers...specifically. People always tell me..Oh yah, those kits, if you
>> can find em are about $600 bucks, if you don't already have a diesel van
>> and
>> have to buy the whole kit...(for putting an inline four gasser in exactly
>> like the original diesel vans were installed.) But looking at the motor
>> carrier bars in mine...these are dead simple. You could have some made at
>> a
>> race chassis shop for about $100 bucks...Just two bends in some steel
>> tubing
>> with plates welded to the ends. A good chassis builder or someone who
>> builds roll cages could make a pair in an hour, max.... The motor mounts,
>> from the carrier bars to the block, those are cast and you might be better
>> looking for junkers or perhaps those are still available as aftermarket
>> parts. You could probably also make those..but not so easy as the engine
>> carrier bars... The Kennedy Engineering adapter plate...again not too
>> expensive..
>> The best part of doing a conversion like this is that it has been widely
>> done before and you could likely find one to copy pretty easily or borrow
>> a
>> diesel van and copy that..No 'reverse engineering' needed.
>>
>> Recently, the rear end of my SO's 70's beamer 2002 rusted pretty much
>> off...The shock mount and spring perch was a stamped extension of the
>> trunk...and it rotted away leaving a rear wheel kinda floppy...She really
>> loves that car so I took it to my local race fabricating shop and we
>> figured
>> out a new rear suspension...a couple of tubes, some plates, etc. Ol' Russ
>> welded and bent...and now she is happy again for just $175! Works better
>> than new, too, except stuff in the trunk gets all wet and dirty if the
>> road
>> is wet...
>> The point being, with a bit of creativity, you can do almost anything to
>> these simple old German cars, and they are certainly worthwhile to keep on
>> the road. Almost any "normal" American, what with our "disposable
>> mind-set"
>> would have just paid to have the cute little Beamer box smooshed...But not
>> Marie..."I just put a rebuilt engine in that car" she said (almost 4 years
>> ago) "And it's got a new tire!"..."can't you fix it? You built a racecar
>> that goes 200mph, you should be able to fix a simple bit of
>> rust...."....Yes, dear...Sure, honey...
>> Don Hanson
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Jake
> 1984 Vanagon GL
> 1986 Westy Weekender "Dixie"
> Crescent Beach, BC
> www.crescentbeachguitar.com
> http://subyjake.googlepages.com/mydixiedarlin%27
>
> ------------------------------
>
> End of vanagon Digest - 12 Jun 2008 (#2008-626)
> ***********************************************
>
| 
