Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2008 11:44:03 -0400
Reply-To: Mike <mbucchino@CHARTER.NET>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: Mike <mbucchino@CHARTER.NET>
Subject: Re: Convertible car seat for Vanagon - Canadian Safety Standards
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http://www.car-safety.org/latch.html
Mike B.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Raymond Paquette" <raymondpaquette@GMAIL.COM>
To: <vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM>
Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2008 10:23 AM
Subject: Re: Convertible car seat for Vanagon - Canadian Safety Standards
> Bruce
>
> The tether is only there to stop the forward motion of a forward-facing
> child seat in a frontal crash. When the seat faces backward, it's
> actually
> meant to be able to rock up and bounce off of the seatback if you get rear
> ended. Or at least that's what I was told (by the local police dept child
> safety person) after I figured out how to tether my son's rear facing
> seat.
>
> I kneel in the seat to get it really sunk into the foam.
>
> Forward facing, I run the tether down along the seat back, and hook it
> onto
> the metal bottom edge of the seat back. This puts the strain on the seat
> back and therefore the mechanism which locks the seat back upright. Not
> ideal, but I'm sure it's better than not tethered. Might be okay, since
> the
> lap belt should take most of the force. I'm sure there are better ways,
> but
> this should certainly improve the odds, which is the point. If we want to
> be perfectly safe, we wouldn't drive at all.
>
> Ray
>
> On Sun, Mar 30, 2008 at 7:24 AM, Ryan Shawley <easywind1975@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> I can vouch for this, I have a forward facing seat in my Westy that
>> doesn't
>> move more than a half inch. The trick is pre-adjusting the lap belt and
>> then putting your weight into the seat to compress the bench seat foam.
>> It
>> should look like your assaulting the seat to anyone passing by.
>>
>> Ryan
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Mike" <mbucchino@CHARTER.NET>
>> To: <vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM>
>> Sent: Saturday, March 29, 2008 21:03
>> Subject: Re: Convertible car seat for Vanagon - Canadian Safety Standards
>>
>>
>> > Apparently you missed this post. It should answer most of the issues
>> > you
>> > said in your reply to me;
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Bruce,
>> >
>> > The top tether strap is only for use in a rear-facing infant seat
>> > application, to limit the seat's forward motion in a crash; it wouldn't
>> > limit sideways motion at all, no matter which direction it's mounted.
>> > The best way to get a tight-fitting seat belt is to place your knee
>> into
>> > the seat while cinching the belt as tight as possible. If you have to
>> > pre-tighten the belt, then latch it in, due the belt's routing inside
>> the
>> > carseat, you still will need to press your weight on your knee into the
>> > seat
>> > to compress the vehicle's seat foam enough to get the belt to latch
>> > very
>> > tightly. This trick was shown to me years ago, and it makes a huge
>> > difference.
>> > Keep those kids safe!
>> > Mike B.
>> >
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: "Bruce Todd" <beeceetee@GMAIL.COM>
>> > To: <vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM>
>> > Sent: Saturday, March 29, 2008 10:25 AM
>> > Subject: Convertible car seat for Vanagon - Canadian Safety Standards
>> >
>> >
>> >> I'm hoping the list can help me purchase the appropriate car seat for
>> my
>> >> toddler who has outgrown her rear facing infant seat. I drive a 86
>> Westy
>> >> Syncro with the current seat locked by the lap belt to the back bench
>> >> seat -
>> >> it seems pretty secure.
>> >>
>> >> The convertible seats, which are for children weighing between 22 to
>> >> 65
>> >> lbs
>> >> (depending on the make) are more difficult to anchor securely and
>> appear
>> >> to
>> >> be designed for more modern vehicles with latching systems and tether
>> >> points.
>> >>
>> >> Last week we took our first camping trip and I swapped the car seat
>> from
>> >> our
>> >> other vehicle, which is a convertible style seat, and fiddled around
>> with
>> >> it
>> >> to get it to fit. It ended up facing the rear and being relatively
>> snug
>> >> from front to back but not to my liking in terms of side to side
>> >> movement.
>> >> Part of the reason for this is it is difficult to cinch the lap belt
>> >> super
>> >> tight because of how the belt travels underneath the child seat. The
>> >> model
>> >> of this seat, which is highly recommended, is a Sunshine Kids Radian -
>> it
>> >> fits quite well in our Honda CRV.
>> >>
>> >> When checking to see whether the seat fit any better frontward facing,
>> I
>> >> was
>> >> disappointed to see that it didn't and was not very snug at all -
>> >> especially
>> >> from side to side. I'm guessing this is the purpose of the top tether
>> on
>> >> the seat - to help stabilize the seat. Obviously I would like to find
>> a
>> >> seat that fits front or rear facing and works to the specifications it
>> is
>> >> designed for.
>> >>
>> >> Anyway, I open this non-mechanical topic up to wise members of the
>> >> Vanagon
>> >> list.
>> >>
>> >> Many thanks,
>> >>
>> >> Bruce Todd
>> >> Vancouver
>> >
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: "Shawn Wright" <vwdiesels@gmail.com>
>> > To: "Mike" <mbucchino@charter.net>
>> > Cc: <vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM>
>> > Sent: Saturday, March 29, 2008 4:54 PM
>> > Subject: Re: Re: Convertible car seat for Vanagon - Canadian Safety
>> > Standards
>> >
>> >
>> >> Mike,
>> >>
>> >> The original poster asked for suggestions on how to more securely
>> anchor
>> >> seats in a vehicle
>> >> never designed for this. I offered my solution. I also offered that
>> >> the
>> >> factory shoulder belts
>> >> may also provide some solutions. I am quite certain the chain and
>> >> assorted
>> >> fastening links
>> >> were significantly stronger than the rear tether straps provided on
>> >> the
>> >> car seat. This
>> >> argument could go on endlessly, as the reality is there are no
>> >> 'authoritative sources' on this
>> >> issue when it comes to retro-fitting child restraints into vehicles
>> >> not
>> >> designed for them, so we
>> >> must do the best we can. I checked with several sources before doing
>> >> this,
>> >> and none of them
>> >> would consider designing a restraint for liability reasons. I do not
>> >> claim
>> >> my solution is the best
>> >> way to go, only something to consider, and likely better than using
>> >> the
>> >> lap belt alone, which is
>> >> explicitly stated as unsafe with many car seats. At the time, I was
>> >> comfortable that the seat
>> >> was as secure in my Westy as it was when installed in my Jetta, which
>> >> uses
>> >> a restraint based
>> >> on the factory design added for the 1990 model year.
>> >>
>> >> I notice you mention your experience with buckling kids in safely, yet
>> >> you
>> >> don't offer any
>> >> constructive advice for the original poster. I would love to hear it,
>> as
>> >> I
>> >> do plan to be driving a
>> >> Westy when the grand kids arrive. :-)
>> >>
>> >> As I mentioned, I pulled the junkyard belts myself, and was able to
>> view
>> >> the donor van, which
>> >> had minimal body damage, so I was comfortable with the condition of
>> >> the
>> >> belts. Your point is
>> >> probably valid, so for those concerned, GoWesty has the new ones.
>> >>
>> >> Regards,
>> >>
>> >> Shawn
>> >>
>> >> On 29 Mar 2008 at 12:39, Mike <mbucchino@charter.net> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> Shawn,
>> >>>
>> >>> I can't say it's a good idea to engineer your own child seat
>> >>> restraints. Using
>> >>> 600lb chain? Did you do an analysis to determine the average forward
>> >>> G-forces
>> >>> generated during a crash at so-many miles-per-hour and calculate the
>> >>> weights of
>> >>> your 2 kids buckled into thier seats, both yanking on that 1 length
>> >>> of
>> >>> chain? I
>> >>> bet not. It's your kids lives and health riding on it. What about
>> when
>> >>> the
>> >>> chain breaks loose and becomes a hard object to whip around and do
>> some
>> >>> really
>> >>> serious damage? What is the strength rating of the quick-links? A
>> >>> chain
>> >>> is
>> >>> only as strong as it's weakest link, right?
>> >>> IMHO, it's not a very smart move in that dept. I have 3 kids of my
>> >>> own, 3
>> >>> kids and a grandkid of my wife's, so I do have a little bit of
>> >>> experience
>> >>> with
>> >>> buckling kiddies in safely.
>> >>> Also, is it ever a good practice to purchase junkyard seatbelts?
>> >>> After
>> >>> all, they're only designed to be good for one crash, and then they
>> >>> should
>> >>> be
>> >>> replaced. Even earlier, if they're defective in any way (worn,
>> >>> weathered,
>> >>> torn,
>> >>> frayed, stretched, aging, etc.).
>> >>> I don't think it's a good idea to 'advertise' your home-brewed
>> safety
>> >>> measures as a 'good way of doing things' to others on the list,
>> either.
>> >>>
>> >>> Mike B.
>> >>>
>> >>> ----- Original Message -----
>> >>> From: "Shawn Wright" <vwdiesels@GMAIL.COM>
>> >>> To: <vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM>
>> >>> Sent: Saturday, March 29, 2008 12:02 PM
>> >>> Subject: Re: Convertible car seat for Vanagon - Canadian Safety
>> >>> Standards
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> > It's there on my '88 CDN model Westy, and I have installed shoulder
>> >>> > belts from
>> >>> > a '90 model on the right side. I plan to do the left side once I
>> >>> > get
>> >>> > around to
>> >>> > pulling the cabinets. Our kids are 9 and 10, so I've been through
>> all
>> >>> > this,
>> >>> > and the only way I was happy with the front facing seat was to make
>> a
>> >>> > rear
>> >>> > anchor by running a piece of chain between the two seat mounting
>> >>> > bolts*, then
>> >>> > clipping the seat's rear mount belt clip into the chain link. This
>> >>> > would allow
>> >>> > me to make both seats very secure, by adjusting the rear strap
>> >>> > tight
>> >>> > enough so
>> >>> > when the lap belt was clipped in, the seat was wedged very tightly
>> >>> > into
>> >>> > the
>> >>> > foam.
>> >>> >
>> >>> > *the seat mounting "bolts" I mean are the large philips head
>> >>> > machine
>> >>> > screws visible on the
>> >>> > rear deck just behind the seat at each corner. I removed them, and
>> >>> > installed a standard metal
>> >>> > car seat anchor hook, then a washer, then a longer bolt. I then
>> linked
>> >>> > the
>> >>> > chain using threaded quick links at each side, and left the chain
>> >>> > loose
>> >>> > enough
>> >>> > that it would reach about 1/2 way up the seat when attached to the
>> car
>> >>> > seat
>> >>> > strap. The chain was chosen large enough that the car seat clips
>> >>> > fit
>> >>> > into the
>> >>> > links, and has a breaking strength of at least 600lbs IIRC. I've
>> used
>> >>> > the same
>> >>> > stuff to lift engines with... :-)
>> >>> >
>> >>> > All that said, since you will eventually want shoulder belts
>> >>> > anyway,
>> >>> > you may
>> >>> > be able to devise a system using the rear should belt that works
>> well
>> >>> > also,
>> >>> > and just do that. I got my belts and all the pieces for about $100
>> >>> > from
>> >>> > a
>> >>> > wrecker, and pulled them myself, so I could see exactly how they
>> >>> > installed,
>> >>> > and got the plastic trim piece for the side panels, etc.
>> >>> >
>> >>> > On 29 Mar 2008 at 8:21, Paul Guzyk <paullist08@GUZYK.COM> wrote:
>> >>> >
>> >>> >> According to GoWesty there is a threaded anchor behind the rear
>> side
>> >>> >> panel.
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >> "The reel mounts into a factory threaded hole - no drilling or
>> >>> >> welding is required"
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >> Perhaps see if the threaded hole exists on your Cdn van then use
>> >>> >> it
>> >>> >> to hold your existing seat securely?
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >>
>> http://gowesty.com/ec_view_details.php?id=3218&search_phrase=child%20seat%20a
>> >>> >> nch or&start=60
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >> item kt-122
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >> >I'm hoping the list can help me purchase the appropriate car seat
>> >>> >> >for
>> >>> >> >my
>> >>> >> >toddler who has outgrown her rear facing infant seat. I drive a
>> 86
>> >>> >> >Westy
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> > Shawn Wright
>> >>> > http://members.shaw.ca/vwdiesels
>> >>> > '88 Westy 1.6TD 5 speed
>> >>> > '85 Jetta Diesel 1.6NA
>> >>> >
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Shawn Wright
>> >> http://members.shaw.ca/vwdiesels
>> >> '88 Westy 1.6TD 5 speed
>> >> '85 Jetta Diesel 1.6NA
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>>
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