Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 19:42:45 -0700
Reply-To: Old Volks Home <oldvolkshome@GMAIL.COM>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: Old Volks Home <oldvolkshome@GMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Definitive test for Hall > ECU?
In-Reply-To: <4727E72B.1080502@gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
That's because yer getting a full 16 degrees vacuum advance when yer gunning
the throttle with no load (16+25[+5 from retard]=46 degrees. On the
highway, yer not using as much throttle to cruise and under a load, thus the
vacuum backs down to the 12 degree average. For the uninitiated, at first
it looks unsettling, but yer fine, don't worry about it - mine's done the
same thing for years.
--
Jim Thompson
84 GL 1.9 "Gloria"
84 Westfalia 2.1 "Ole Putt"
73 K Ghia Coupe "Denise"
72 411 Station Wagon "Pug"
oldvolkshome@gmail.com
http://www.oldvolkshome.com
***********************************
On 10/30/07, Michael Elliott <camping.elliott@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hm. With the vacuum hoses hooked up, my 1.9l shows a difference of 45
> degrees between idle advance and 3500 rpm full advance. That means that if
> I set idle (with idle stabilizer bypassed) to 5* ATDC, I measure 40
> degrees at 3500 rpm. But my engine is not super happy at 5* ATDC and wants
> its throttle bypass turned pretty darn far out. I get smoother starts and
> a bit more torque with idle set to 0* (TDC), but then I measure 45* at
> full advance. This with my super-duper Sears timing light. Do these
> numbers make sense to those of you who know this stuff?
>
> --
> Mike "Rocket J Squirrel" Elliott
> 71 Type 2: the Wonderbus
> 84 Westfalia: Mellow Yellow ("The Electrical Banana")
> 74 Utility Trailer. Ladybug Trailer, Inc., San Juan Capistrano
> KG6RCR
>
>
>
> On 10/30/2007 6:37 PM Old Volks Home wrote:
>
> > California does in fact check the timing with their test equipment and
> at
> > the idle speed, not at full advance as per their test
> specifications. In
> > Smog Check II test areas using the dyno, the idle timing is monitored,
> > but the timing during high rpm/load test test is not monitored, but the
> > spark signal is monitored during all procedures of the entire test to
> detect
> > mis-fires.
> >
> > As far as timing at full advance at 3800rpm for the 1.9, I would at
> least be
> > sure your vacuum advance/retard can is able to hold vacuum at the high
> rpm
> > (advance) and idle rpm (retard) loads and that yer spot-on at the
> factory
> > recommendation. You really don't wanna exceed the 25 BTDC mechanical
> > advance maximum @ 3800rpm, because the vacuum advance adds another 12
> > degrees when functioning properly.
> > --
> > Jim Thompson
> > 84 GL 1.9 "Gloria"
> > 84 Westfalia 2.1 "Ole Putt"
> > 73 K Ghia Coupe "Denise"
> > 72 411 Station Wagon "Pug"
> > oldvolkshome@gmail.com
> > http://www.oldvolkshome.com
> > ***********************************
> > On 10/30/07, Karin Baker & Raymond Paquette <raymondpaquette@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >> Is there any reason not to rev it up and set the timing at maximum
> >> advance? It's not the timing at idle that really matters, I think, so
> it
> >> can just land wherever your worn out springs land it.
> >>
> >> Of course, I don' t know what the timing should be at max advance.
> >>
> >> Then again, don't CA smog check the actual timing, not just emissions?
> >>
> >> Anyone?
> >>
> >> Raymond
> >>
> >> On 10/30/07, Old Volks Home <oldvolkshome@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>> For the past 10 years I have always run my timing on my 84 Automatic
> >>> Westy
> >>> at 0 (TDC) - runs smoother, best powerband transition and have no
> >>> problem
> >>> passing California smog at this setting.
> >>>
> >>> Why not 5 degrees ATDC? The 1.9 Distributor with the high mileage
> (180K
> >>> on
> >>> mine) on them tends to be a bit "worn" with tired advance
> >>> springs/weights in
> >>> the mechanical action and placing the timing at 0 in most instances
> >>> (sometimes even up to 5 BTDC) compensates for the wear. Remember -
> the
> >>> specs shown in Bentley and on my website are for brand new and low
> >>> mileage
> >>> distributors with fairly low to medium mileage engines for optimum
> >>> performance.
> >>>
> >>> I'm not sure if I would go as far as 10 degrees BTDC - yer living
> pretty
> >>>
> >>> darn close to the edge of pinging/detonation, these things run lean
> >>> enough
> >>> as it is. My rule of thumb is that if you have you time it that high,
> >>> it's
> >>> time to replace or rebuild the distributor with new springs, weights,
> >>> etc.
> >>>
> >>> 10 half turns (actually is 5 full turns) from the bottoming out of the
> >>> Throttle Bypass Screw is a bit high. Generally 3 full turns is the
> norm
> >>> (it
> >>> is on mine) and when I upgraded to Boston Bob's Euro-Digijet 2.1 ECU
> >>> earlier
> >>> this year I had to re-set clockwise about 3 half turns ( 1 1/2 full
> >>> turns) in to bring the idle down (it went up). Checked the timing,
> but
> >>> that
> >>> didn't need resetting. Haven't had to mess with it since.
> >>> --
> >>> Jim Thompson
> >>> 84 GL 1.9 "Gloria"
> >>> 84 Westfalia 2.1 "Ole Putt"
> >>> 73 K Ghia Coupe "Denise"
> >>> 72 411 Station Wagon "Pug"
> >>> oldvolkshome@gmail.com
> >>> http://www.oldvolkshome.com
> >>> ***********************************
> >>> On 10/30/07, Michael Elliott <camping.elliott@gmail.com > wrote:
> >>>> Thanks, Ken. You're not the first to suggest that while 5* ATDC can
> >>> make
> >>>> passing emissions easier -- and in California that's always a
> >>>> consideration -- better performance is available closer to, or past,
> >>> TDC.
> >>>> I do a lot of mountain driving and don't want to ping the engine to
> >>> death
> >>>> so I might not enter deeply into BTDC territory.
> >>>>
> >>>> I am curious to see how getting closer to TDC affects the throttle
> >>> bypass
> >>>> screw adjustment. If 10 half-turns CCW from fully in is, as everyone
> >>> says,
> >>>> an unusually large amount to be needed in order to get the engine to
> >>> idle
> >>>> with the idle stabilizer bypassed, then something is fishy.
> >>>>
> >>>> But as Jim Thompson offered yesterday, I tend to get obsessive about
> >>> these
> >>>> things, about poking too deeply into the corners where my ignorance
> is
> >>>> darkest and chasing my tail. That's two metaphors, mixed, I think.
> >>>>
> >>>> W/r/t the other things you suggested I might consider, my cylinders
> >>> test
> >>>> at 155, 155, 155, 135 and the manifold tests at 11'' Hg, which
> appears
> >>> to
> >>>> be the standard idle vacuum per Bentley's (inferred, see my top-rated
> >>> blog
> >>>> at http://camping.elliott.googlepages.com/poormileage). Others have
> >>> posted
> >>>> more inches of vacuum as being standard but I'm satisfied that 11''
> is
> >>>> pretty good. But thanks for mentioning them.
> >>>>
> >>>> --
> >>>> Mike "Rocket J Squirrel" Elliott
> >>>> 71 Type 2: the Wonderbus
> >>>> 84 Westfalia: Mellow Yellow ("The Electrical Banana")
> >>>> 74 Utility Trailer. Ladybug Trailer, Inc., San Juan Capistrano
> >>>> KG6RCR
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> On 10/30/2007 4:21 AM Ken Wilford wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> Mike, I usually set mine for 5-10 degrees BTDC. The 2.1l Vanagons
> >>> were
> >>>>> spec at 7 deg BTDC (if memory serves). The retarded timing setting
> >>> for
> >>>>> the 1.9l Vanagon is (I believe) a compromise for emissions testing.
> >>>>> However I have set mine at 10 BTDC with much better driveability,
> >>> power,
> >>>>> etc. Never had any problems with pinging, or even getting through
> >>>>> emissions tests (strict here in NJ).
> >>>>> If you do this your idle should come up to where it should be
> >>> without
> >>>>> turning the screw to oblivion.
> >>>>> Also you might want to check your valve adjustment. If the valves
> >>>>> adjustment is too tight this can cause low manifold pressure
> >>> (vacuum)
> >>>>> and idling problems. A compression test would help in this area.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Hope this helps,
> >>>>> Ken Wilford
> >>>>> John 3:16
> >>>>> www.vanagain.com
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Michael Elliott wrote:
> >>>>>> Hm. I already did all that. Had a friend check my timing, too.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Bentley's says 5 degrees ATDC for the 1.9l (p. 24.18). Is there a
> >>>>>> reason I
> >>>>>> should be doing 10 degrees?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> --
> >>>>>> Mike "Rocket J Squirrel" Elliott
> >>>>>> 71 Type 2: the Wonderbus
> >>>>>> 84 Westfalia: Mellow Yellow ("The Electrical Banana")
> >>>>>> 74 Utility Trailer. Ladybug Trailer, Inc., San Juan Capistrano
> >>>>>> KG6RCR
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On 10/29/2007 9:30 PM Geza Polony wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> 10 full turns is way way way off the mark. This is an indication
> >>> of a
> >>>>>>> problem. The first thing I'd check is the ignition timing. Free,
> >>> too.
> >>>>>>> Start by setting the timing, with the idle stabilizer bypassed, to
> >>>>>>> 10* ATDC,
> >>>>>>> hoses attached, 950 rpm. You should be able to get it to run fine
> >>>>>>> with the
> >>>>>>> idle stabilizer out. Then reattach.
> >>
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