Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 13:37:24 -0400
Reply-To: Jim Akiba <syncrolist@BOSTIG.COM>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: Jim Akiba <syncrolist@BOSTIG.COM>
Subject: Re: Hybrid Engine Conversion
In-Reply-To: <47052244.5010301@telus.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
I follow what they mean, but I was thinking in the wrong scale... thinking
more along the lines of pleasure-craft which is far more equivalent to cars
than cruise ships or trains... although have you seen the Hyundai monster
ICE driven cargo ships?
Good stuff. I wouldn't go a propane injected boxer hybrid, not worth the
effort. With the money and time you could do SO much better.
Jim Akiba
On 10/4/07, Mark Keller <kelphoto@telus.net> wrote:
>
> Jim,
>
> I do think that the smallish engine/ engine compartment sizing that the
> vanagon has means it is ideally configured to benefit from a hybrid
> approach. In that a hybrid is implemented by using a smaller sized ICE
> to start with means that Vanagons were somewhat pre-hybrid
> manufactured. Cost of impleenting the new technology isn't necessarily
> a decision point. It seems worth cruching the numbers from the
> suppliers listed. The Kta site reference say $3150. This not a hybid,
> but does give a rough approximate of the cost of similiary sized
> componets. Ie a smaller motor,
>
> KTA EV Conversion Kit #1...suitable for propelling 500 to 1500 lb.
> motorcycle or ultralight kit car...at speeds up to 55 MPH...48 to 72
> V...basic kit without extras includes: ADV. DC #K91-4003...CURTIS
> #1209B-6402...CURTIS #PB-6...ALBRIGHT #SW-180B ...FERRAZ/SHAWMUT
> #A15QS400-4...G.E. #TQD-150...KTA SWITCHPLATE...WESTBERG #A2C6-30 &
> A2C5-3 (48 V) or A2C5-28 (54-72 V)...DELTEC #MKB-500-50 & MKA-50-50...K
> & W #BC-20...MAGNECRAFT #W389ACX-9...PRESTOFLEX #4 GA Cable...MAGNA
> Lugs, Heat Shrink Pieces...10-pos. Barrier Strip...Welding Cable Tool Kit
>
> $2750 to $3150
>
> approx.
>
> Ultimately a waterboxer could be hybrid electric with direct injected
> propane and a screw supercharger --that would be: interesting,
> powerful, economical and clean!
>
> In that flywheel conservation of momentum isn't being practiced by DIY,
> it may not be ultimately practical in expense or man hours to complete.
> This following site is somewhat applicable. I couldn't find a enthusiast
> kit or working model, as in the ICE-Electric hybrid approach.
>
> http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1978PhDT.........6U
>
> Off topic, As to marine use efficiency the site is a for pure
> ICE-Electric setup. All modern cruise ships use this format, like
> trains do. They utilized an A/C motor pod beneath the vessel for
> propulsion and the ICE diesel in the hull. The reason is , from the OSSA
> site explanation on fuel efficiency, I realize this is marketing
> oriented but then again, we have to "read around" marketing hype all the
> time. OSSA or Glacier Bay seems to be the real deal though, if you look
> through their site.
>
> " This means that diesel-electric systems can be much better at
> "self-optimizing" to accommodate varying loads than are conventional
> systems. At sea, load conditions change by the trip (number of
> passengers), by the hour (wind and tide) and by the minute (going up a
> wave or surfing down it). These variations provide a significant
> opportunity for fuel savings."
>
> /Seems to me hybrid would not be a good fit for a marine application,
> varying
> rpm, load, and regen braking are where the hybrid is compelling as you
> pointed out. I believe that in our vans(typically lot's of hwy miles) the
> total thermal efficiency is going to be low enough that other technologies
> will make more sense before current hybrid technology for efficiency. For
> me, because I use my 9 pass. as a daily driver, and it's mostly city
> miles,
> it might be great from an efficiency standpoint. From a cost standpoint
> it's
> still really high. There is another even simpler way to have some of the
> exact same benefits would mentioned. Good old flywheels. Imagine a monster
> flywheel with axis of rotation up/down under the van dead center. It would
> be cool because not only could you use it to store, and retrieve energy
> like
> a hybrid system, but it would gyroscopically stabilize the van in the
> correct plane and in theory would be more efficient itself at storing
> mechanical energy because there is no transformation required. Make it as
> heavy as one of the hybrid battery packs as large in diameter as possible
> with the weight biased to the outside edge, and spin it as fast as
> realistically possible and I wonder what kind of thermal efficiency you
> could reach in city driving./
>
> Jim Akiba
>
> On 10/4/07, Mark Keller <kelphoto@telus.net> wrote:
>
> >>
> >> Hi gang,
> >>
> >> With the question of making a hybrid a I'm a bit of a neophyte, but In
> >> researching a hybrid install for a marine customer I came across a
> >> couple of websites that explain to some of us why putting an electric
> >> motor on a ICE, internal combustion engine, can actually improve the
> ICE
> >> fuel mileage, and in course have beneficial effects on emissions. I've
> >> summarized it below and included the websites at the bottom
> >>
> >> The Basic benefiting principle is that ICE are not equally efficient
> at
> >> converting fuel to usable work at all RPM ranges. Most efficient is at
> >> combination of gearing, 75% throttle and RPM. Least efficient at idle
> >> and anything less than 75% throttle. Hybrid Engine controllers
> >> supplement the ICE with the electrical motor at the less efficient ICE
> >> RPMs, and recover some of the electrical energy in braking and when at
> >> efficient ICE RPMs.
> >>
> >> The other benefits: ( Inductively thinking is all I have to go on so be
> >> forewarned). Engine life would be enhanced, since it's overall load is
> >> reduced by transferring electrical power in demand situations where the
> >> ICE is not at it's most thermally efficient RPM range. This "power" is
> >> partly free, in that the EC, engine controller, recovers electrical
> >> energy by charging the batteries, which is a "braking effect" on the
> >> vehicle. Brakes on the vehicle last longer, since they see less
> >> stopping momentum. You get the idea.
> >>
> >> The rest of the electrical power comes from two sources. When the
> >> engine is at cruise RPM, aka a efficient thermal RPM and the load on
> the
> >> engine permits, charging of the batteries takes place. The EC takes
> >> care of this "seamlessly". The other charge is the nightly plug in.
> >>
> >> In my opinion, while none of the above operations occur at ideal rpms
> to
> >> the power/generation electric motor, or the ICE, a recognizable benefit
> >> does occur. I say this because in a true application, the ICE would
> only
> >> operate at it's optimum thermal efficient RPM in order to supply the
> >> electric motor. This is not completely a windfall though as pound for
> >> pound, the electric motor needed to replace the ICE's torque is heavy,
> >> some 600lbs. Nor is a 50kw electric motor Cheap!
> >>
> >> Another good thing is that the waterboxer is light at 265lbs and the
> >> engine's combustion chamber designe is particular efficient at cruise
> >> rpm. Even more so with an updated EC. So in my opinion a pretty
> >> competitive application of technology to the waterboxer.
> >>
> >> In another twist I think that the elusive "more torque" question is
> >> solved by the electric motor being there to help get extra boost to
> move
> >> the vehicle when needed. This is subtle but the key is that the torque
> >> boost helps by getting the waterboxer RPMs up to it's power
> range. This
> >> is important because the engine is so weak at lower RPMs, I believe we
> >> would see a greater benefit than other vehilce/engine combinations.
> >>
> >> Thanks for listening in
> >>
> >> Mark
> >> In order of relevance
> >> Diesel-electric marine propulsion systems and accessories.
> >> <
> >>
> http://www.ossapowerlite.com/tech_library/fuel_efficiency/fuel_efficiency.htm
> >
> >
> >>> >
> >>
> >>
> >> KTA Services Inc. < http://www.kta-ev.com/>
> >> L.M.C. Manufacturers of Permanent Magnet DC Motors
> >> <http://www.lemcoltd.com/performance.htm>
> >> Curtis Instruments- Instrumentation, motor speed controllers, battery
> >> chargers <http://www.curtisinst.com/>
> >>
> >> DetectorTechnologies.com - Product Catalog
> >> <
> http://www.detectortechnologies.com/store/SearchResult.aspx?CategoryID=5
> >
> >
> >>> >
> >>
> >>
> >> ASMO Marine <http://www.asmomarine.com/2005/asmo_uk/00.shtml>
> >> taylorproductolinecard-bilingual.pdf (application/pdf Object)
> >> <http://www.taylorproducto.ca/taylorproductolinecard-bilingual.pdf>
> >> http://www.steamboating.net/
> >>
> >> Boat Design Net - the Boat Design and Boat Building Site
> >> <http://boatdesign.net/>
> >> has a Hybrid forum under the propulsion section.
> >> Boat Design Net - the Boat Design and Boat Building Site
> >> <http://boatdesign.net/>
> >
>
>
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