Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 20:43:35 -0700
Reply-To: Scott Daniel - Shazam <scottdaniel@TURBOVANS.COM>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: Scott Daniel - Shazam <scottdaniel@TURBOVANS.COM>
Subject: Re: 50 worst cars, and the vanagon isn't one of them
In-Reply-To: <46e5d1db.1aa87e0a.1bfa.75af@mx.google.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Must be weird energy today or this week.
If the group moderator suggested a thread be let go , for the sake of group
harmony or integrity - fine.
For one poster to suggest that their post be the last word in a thread -
hmmm......somehow doesn't feel quite right.
Personally, I love lively debate, and feel that subjects such as global
warming are quite relevant to our passion - vanagons. But that's just me.
Other's may think that it should be kept fairly narrowly focused on pure
vanagon issues.
In any case, I'm in favor of expression, sharing views, and I think debate,
but not flaming, is fine, if not even productive and useful.
How about some flexibility, some acceptance, some Tolerance.... ....and it
is just super fine to ignore posts. Hell, I do it all the time ! - lol :)
We don't have to take on each posting like a personal investment or
reflection of what's important to us as individuals. Really.
Scott
-----Original Message-----
From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com] On Behalf Of
Joy Hecht
Sent: Monday, September 10, 2007 4:27 PM
To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
Subject: Re: 50 worst cars, and the vanagon isn't one of them
Hi guys*,
I'm not going to jump in with a vehement reply to this (yes, amazingly, I
CAN hold my tongue on climate change in the interests of list harmony! :-).
So how about no one else responds either, and we end this thread now?
It's still really hot in the mid-Atlantic, the A/C in my van doesn't work,
tempers around here are short, and it would be nice not to face fights on
the list, too. Especially after Jim nicely asked us to stop the last
irrelevant thread just today - under the same subject, too.
So think calm... no political battles today.
Joy
* "guys" in my use of the word is gender-neutral. No feminist flames
either, please! Oh, but wait, that's usually me with the feminist flames,
isn't it? Hmm...
*******************************************************************
Dr. Joy E. Hecht
Consultant on Environmental Policy and Information
Email: jhecht@alum.mit.edu
mobile: 1-202-494-1162
tel: 1-703-979-0759
URL: http://www.joyhecht.net
Skype: joy.e.hecht
*******************************************************************
:::-----Original Message-----
:::From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com] On Behalf
:::Of Andrew Grebneff
:::Sent: Monday, September 10, 2007 7:44 PM
:::To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
:::Subject: Re: 50 worst cars, and the vanagon isn't one of them
:::
:::>If you are one who thinks we can alter our society's habits by simply
:::>driving the costs higher and higher, then you are not paying attention,
:::>because by the time you force the Hummer and massive SUV owners to
:::>change their driving styles at $9 and $10 a gallon, you will have
:::>already killed off millions of low income people who only want to get to
:::>work, and maybe drive the family to a campground now and then.
:::
:::True. In the States you still have CHEAP gas. Same in New Zealand &
:::Australia. Pretty much everywhere else (apart from the Middle East)
:::you'd be paying $5.00/l. They do in Europe... and still they seem to
:::manage, but how, I don't know.
:::
:::>Nothing personal mind you, but I am quite sick of reading about how 'if
:::>only we charged $10 a gallon, that would solve the problem.' All that
:::>does, is take away the ability of millions to get around, while the well
:::>to do, and filthy rich, could care less how much it costs.
:::
:::Exactly how much less could they care? "Could care less" means just
:::that... that you DO care, not that you don't care.
:::
:::>If you got an issue with polar bears and coral reefs
:::
:::I love coral reefs and do not like bears, especially of the white
:::kind... but they have a RIGHT to live too. However "Global Warming"
:::may be real, but in all honesty nobody has ANY idea why or how (never
:::mind all the opinions thrown around by all & sundry). All we can say
:::is that by looking over the geological record we can see that global
:::temperatures have risen and fallen almost constantly... so what's
:::new?? We can't honestly blame it on man's production of heat &
:::effluents, which, to use the adage, are like a fart in a hurricane.
:::The truth is that WE DO NOT KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT CLIMATIC CONTROLS OR
:::WHY THE CLIMATE APPEARS TO BE WARMING UP. We only know that IT HAS
:::HAPPENED MANY TIMES BEFORE. The trend could slow, remain constant for
:::some time or slow... or it could reverse. Nothing we can do about it,
:::and all of this shit about carbon taxes, ethanol produced from
:::sugarcane/bromeliads is just that... shit.
:::
:::>, and you equate
:::>them to driving automobiles, why do you drive your van? Will you quit
:::>driving your van on behalf of the earth, or will you just be happy to
:::>pay more, to appease your conscience somehow, like so many of the rich
:::>who think they are helping the problem, by purchasing "carbon credits?"
:::>Does it hurt the polar bears any less, if people pay twice as much for
:::>gasoline? There is no logic in that position. How do you justify taking
:::>the approach that since cars are bad, only the very rich should be able
:::>to drive them? If cars are bad, cars need to go away, across the board.
:::
:::Cars produce only a minor part of atmospheric pollutants and
:::"greenhouse" gases. Industry and power-generation are the real
:::culprits, along with forest fires and volcanic activity. Possibly
:::also the odd eruption of methane clathrates on continental shelves.
:::But it's like the "speed kills" campaigns run by gummint
:::authorities... cars are an easy target and are visible wherever you
:::look. Take the easy route and ignore the real culprit; that's
:::politics and jornalism. And the rich always get whatever benefits
:::there are going. Heck, they can afford to buy more lottery tickets!!
:::
:::>If folks are convinced that cars are killing us, which I am not, then
:::>given the fact that being mobile is such an important part of ALL of our
:::>lives, then its time to ration gas, which will insure that even those
:::>who are not so well off can at least afford to go to work, and drive to
:::>the grocery store. A mom with four kids, can't get by on a bicycle when
:::>she buys food for a week. How come you only want rich people to be able
:::>to afford to drive to the store and get food?
:::
:::A huge amount of oil goes into production of plastics. In a small
:::place like New Zealand I look around and see the thick plastic
:::packaging on items like dishwash detergent, lightbulbs abd single
:::lolipops. Plus all the masses of plastic powertools etc coming from
:::China... all of this throwaway plastic, with recycling barely
:::beginning, is frightening. I can forsee that landfills are going to
:::be mined before too long for their contained metals & plastics, and
:::too bad for anyone who built a house on top of one!
:::
:::--
:::Andrew Grebneff
:::Dunedin
:::New Zealand
:::Fossil preparator
:::Seashell, Macintosh, VW/Toyota van nut
:::, Opinions stated are mine, not of the University of Otago
:::"There is water at the bottom of the ocean" - Talking Heads
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