Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 16:32:03 -0400
Reply-To: Dennis Haynes <d23haynes57@HOTMAIL.COM>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: Dennis Haynes <d23haynes57@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: politics of e85 RE: E85 in vanagons
In-Reply-To: <46534D35.4020705@charter.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
There are basic engineering standards for each of these questions.
For our purposes, the values are usually expressed in BTUs/pound which are
then converted into BTUs/gallon. Then there are the Metric standards.
Dennis
>From: John Rodgers <inua@CHARTER.NET>
>Reply-To: John Rodgers <inua@CHARTER.NET>
>To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
>Subject: Re: politics of e85 RE: E85 in vanagons
>Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 15:06:13 -0500
>
>All this raises some interesting questions.
>
>My question - does anyone know where I can find numbers on energy
>release from oxidizing of gasoline, diesel, alcohol and hydrogen - each
>separately, not as a mixture. IE, what is the energy released by
>oxidizing a single molecule of gasoline, or of alcohol. It would be very
>interesting to see comparisons of all these. There must be studies that
>have been done on this somewhere. Any leads>>
>
>Thanks,
>
>John Rodgers
>88 GL Driver
>
>John Connolly, Aircooled.Net wrote:
>>I have run E85 for almost 2 years in 2 of my cars, and have converted
>>several so know a bit about it.
>>
>>I DO know that the jury is still out on it actually being "cleaner". Yes
>>it's cleaner THE WAY WE CURRENTLY MEASURE "EMMISIONS", but is it producing
>>more bad stuff we do not measure yet? As usual the morons in charge will
>>figure this out after spending hundreds of billions of $, and after a LOT
>>of
>>committments have been made towards the new fuel. Or maybe they are doing
>>this on purpose so that they don't find out until it's too late, I don't
>>know.
>>
>>But I think it's a huge mistake to assume that ethanol is cleaner just
>>because the way we measure the tailpipe says it's cleaner. This is an
>>error
>>because it is
>>
>>1) Only measuring the tailpipe. What emmisions are dispersed in the mfg of
>>the ethanol?
>>and
>>2) what bad stuff is coming out the tailpipe we aren't measuring yet?
>>
>>John
>>Aircooled.Net Inc.
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "Jim Akiba" <syncrolist@BOSTIG.COM>
>>To: <vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM>
>>Sent: Monday, May 21, 2007 3:53 PM
>>Subject: politics of e85 RE: E85 in vanagons
>>
>>
>>
>>>Most of the softparts will be ok, the one I'm wondering about is the fuel
>>>pump, but we've found an e85 capable pump for $40 that can be had
>>>
>>nationwide
>>
>>>just in case. Not sure about the plastic used for some parts etc..
>>>remains
>>>to be seen on the stock boxer.
>>>
>>>The engine management for the stock boxer won't be able to compensate to
>>>
>>run
>>
>>>e85 correctly, but it may run and might drive albeit very lean...
>>>question
>>>is will the cooling effect of the e85 help avoid detonation running so
>>>
>>lean?
>>
>>>Not sure, but somebody should try it.
>>>
>>>You hit the nail on the head about the ethanol production. But not moving
>>>
>>to
>>
>>>e85 isn't going to fight the battle you intend to engage in. Diesel is
>>>
>>being
>>
>>>crippled through legislation in the US... unfortunately the big money
>>>guys
>>>can make more pushing ethanol, and keep costs lower, so all the new
>>>particulate emissions regs are killing light duty diesel infiltration...
>>>
>>low
>>
>>>sulphur was supposed to open the floodgates for OEMS to bring in euro
>>>
>>light
>>
>>>duty diesel, and now just in time for the low sulphur mandate to come
>>>into
>>>effect they clamp down hard on particulates, an even more expensive and
>>>currently complicated thing to curb in diesels.
>>>
>>>The best thing is that I'm aware of several large scale cellulosic
>>>ethanol
>>>plants, that are under production, but that don't know what process they
>>>
>>are
>>
>>>going to use to make the ethanol... they are building the )@&$%@* plants
>>>
>>but
>>
>>>haven't figured out the process yet... anyone puzzled? Me too. But just
>>>follow the money up the yes men until it breaks on a fat cat.
>>>
>>>IMHO Resisting ethanol is not the way to help the situation. And ethanol
>>>isn't the holy grail, but it's a start, it's got the money behind it, and
>>>it'll work for lot's of people's wallets now.. and it does burn much
>>>cleaner. My question would be under current production methods, what's
>>>the
>>>total emissions of the production of e85 vs gasoline given the energy
>>>density differences.
>>>
>>>The next thing that is going to happen to squash light duty diesels in
>>>the
>>>US is the combo of GDI and either combined cycles or hybrids along with
>>>
>>the
>>
>>>e85. They will continue to creep closer to diesel mpgs as time goes on.
>>>
>>It's
>>
>>>cheaper to make GDI engines than fit light duty diesels with 5 way
>>>ammonia
>>>or nox catalysts, unless there's a breakthrough, watch the BLUETEC
>>>initiative to see if it's going to happen. If it fails, or doesn't make
>>>
>>much
>>
>>>money kiss your light duty diesel wishes goobye for the next 8 years
>>>
>>anyhow.
>>
>>>Jim Akiba
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>From: Matt Roberds [mailto:mattroberds@COX.NET]
>>>Sent: Monday, May 21, 2007 4:55 PM
>>>To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
>>>Subject: Re: E85 in vanagons
>>>
>>>
>>>>From: Adrian Bertarelli <abertarelli@GMAIL.COM>
>>>>Date: Mon, 21 May 2007 12:03:56 -0600
>>>>
>>>>I haven't seen this question asked so i thought just for the
>>>>discussion, what would it take to convert our stock engines to run
>>>>on e85.
>>>>
>>>The first thing you have to do is make sure all the soft parts of the
>>>fuel system are compatible with E85. E85 will eat some kinds of rubber
>>>and plastic. Most newer hoses will be able to cope with at least E10,
>>>but E85 may be too much for them. Unfortunately most aftermarket
>>>suppliers won't know the answer to this question, so "fill it up and
>>>see what starts leaking" is sometimes used as a test method.
>>>
>>>If you do nothing else, the ECU will probably more or less deal with
>>>the different fuel. If you do want to twiddle something, things in the
>>>direction of making it run richer may help a little. E85 has less
>>>energy than gasoline, so your engine power will be down. If it's engine
>>>rebuild time, you can bump up the compression to get some of the power
>>>back. If you bump it up enough, though, you have to run premium gas if
>>>you're not running E85.
>>>
>>>If you like the _idea_ of E85 but the above makes you uneasy, there is
>>>something else you can do. Run regular gas in your van, but once a year,
>>>drive out into the countryside. Find a farmer and hand him a couple of
>>>hundred bucks, cash. This will achieve the same goals as E85 production
>>>without all that fooling around with corn and combines and trucks and
>>>refineries and stuff. By most accounts, ethanol from corn takes more
>>>energy to produce than you get back from burning the ethanol - a lot of
>>>the ethanol stuff is a way to subsidize farming without appearing to
>>>subsidize farming. Yes, I know you can get a net energy gain by using
>>>crops other than corn to make ethanol, but as far as I know, this is not
>>>done in the US.
>>>
>>>Biodiesel is _probably_ a net energy gain - you usually get more out
>>>than you put into it. I don't think there's enough farmland for the US
>>>to grow all of our fuel, but we can probably make a useful dent in what
>>>we import if we decide we really want to.
>>>
>>>The absolute sure-fire 100% guaranteed way to save money on gas is...
>>>drive less! :) Then, do all the things that you've heard about since
>>>1974... make sure your tires are full of air, change your fuel and air
>>>filters regularly, keep your engine in good tune, drive sedately, etc.
>>>When it's time for another car, consider one of the hybrids or the newer
>>>common-rail-injection diesels. You will have to look in Tokyo and/or
>>>Wolfsburg; Detroit isn't interested in building efficient cars. In
>>>2007, there's no reason why your "daily driver" sedan shouldn't average
>>>45-50 mpg.
>>>
>>>Matt Roberds
>>>
>>>!DSPAM:46521603132291041711982!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
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