Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 10:55:09 -0700
Reply-To: Robert Keezer <warmerwagen@YAHOO.COM>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: Robert Keezer <warmerwagen@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: e85 RE: E85 in vanagons (was politics)
In-Reply-To: <076301c79c8e$eb5b0b50$6708010a@NewHomeHub>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Gasoline burns black and sooty outside a 14:1
engine air-fuel ratio.
Straight alcohol burns clean and sootless because
alcohol contains an oxygen molecule.
Burn a small container of gas and alcohol in
small containers side by side and watch how gas
burns with black smoke. The alchohol gives off no
smoke.
Carbon dioxide is a by-product of combustion.
Humans and all animals exhale carbon-dioxide.
Plants "breathe" carbon-dioxide and "exhale"
oxygen.
If carbon dioxide is in fact the reason for
global warming, the loss of forests and
vegetation would seem to be a major contributor
also. More plants, reforestation, this helps put
more oxygen in the air. Even houseplants are good
as they add oxygen to the air.
You have to spend energy to make energy.
We can't go back to the stone age. They burned
fire then too.It wasn't free.
Where is free energy? Wind energy is not free,
solar energy is not free. These modern energy
technologies would not have been possible without
petroleum.
Now if the abandoment of petroleum is possible,
it's only because of petroleum.
I don't really care what I butn as long as it
doesn't cost 50.00 every time I want to fill the
tank.
If alchohol will do it then maybe I won't change
the engine back to Diesel as I have been
thinking.
. But then E-85 is not available in the NW. When
it is , it will cost more than gas and touted as
a green fuel.
All fuels are green- they came from the earth.
Whether science synthesizes it or not, the raw
material came from the earth. They are not all
equal, but each has it's plus and minus
qualities,
Then we get into the political aspect like that
is going to amount to something.
Energy is a commodity . Commodities are
controlled by markets. Oil and energy companies
are free markets . In state-run markets the
people are given cheap oil as a reward for their
loyalty in serfdom .
Would I give up one of my American freedoms for
cheap oil? (don't tell me I already have. ) It's
$50.00 to fill my tank. If I fill it, I will
overdraft my bank account)
Bah! you can say you hope gas goes up to ten
bucks a gallon which will be a disaster to the US
economy which we all benefit from because we are
an inextricable part of it.
One member here makes a living selling
Westfalias. How is he going to get $15,000 that
he needs for his investment return if gas goes up
to ten bucks a gallon? How is that helping people
in the long run? How long will the long run last?
If gasoline had cost that much at the beginning
of the automoble age, there would'nt be gas fired
combustion engine. They would have stayed with
steam or electric or the Ford Nucleon.
Yeah that sucker was nuclear!
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Nucleon)
Now that the price of pertoleum is becoming
affordable only to the wealthy, then we have to
find another way to get the price down for fuel
we need.
Affordability was Ford's concept. VW imitated
Ford. It has been since Volkswagen's inception to
be an affordable people's car.
What has happened to affordability? Is everyone a
millionaire now? It seems thjat the market thinks
so. Arab Oil sheiks driving around in limousines
must think so.
Don't tell me I have an addiction to oil- I don't
drive around all day for fun like teenagers do. I
use it for my economic survival and a little
recreational use which you can't do without.
So I am all for alcohol or anything that is
cheaper than oil. Who isn't ? What, you mean you
won't use it unless it's gone thru another ten
years of scientific study?
Gee, I am just the little guy trying to get by. I
need energy.
I live in an urban area, most of which is heated
by clean burning petroleum fuels. I can't even
burn oil in my oil furnace. I have to burn wood .
If petroleum fuels are too expensive except for
the very rich, then all of us who need the motor
vehicle(or why is there a Vanagon list) either
have to become rich, or change to something else
to burn.
Then someone says we need to stop burning stuff
and go solar . Yeah. Like that's a switch the the
world can make all of a sudden .
Man has needed to burn fire since the beginning
of time. And if man doesn't nature will. You
can't ban forest fires.
My clean burning gas engine burning e-85 sure
don't pollute like a forest fire.
E-85 from what I have read has to have the 15%
gasoline to make it legal. You can always add
more gas if you need more power.
Farmers are forming Biodiesel and alcohol
cooperatives . Each contributes a share of their
crops to buy the fuel at prices lower than the
current Diesel .
Maybe the whales are going to save us in the
end.( they eat the seals that eat the salmon).
Maybe that's just their way of saying thanks for
saving them.
Robert
1982 Westfalia
--- "John Connolly, Aircooled.Net"
<john@AIRCOOLED.NET> wrote:
> I have run E85 for almost 2 years in 2 of my
> cars, and have converted
> several so know a bit about it.
>
> I DO know that the jury is still out on it
> actually being "cleaner". Yes
> it's cleaner THE WAY WE CURRENTLY MEASURE
> "EMMISIONS", but is it producing
> more bad stuff we do not measure yet? As usual
> the morons in charge will
> figure this out after spending hundreds of
> billions of $, and after a LOT of
> committments have been made towards the new
> fuel. Or maybe they are doing
> this on purpose so that they don't find out
> until it's too late, I don't
> know.
>
> But I think it's a huge mistake to assume that
> ethanol is cleaner just
> because the way we measure the tailpipe says
> it's cleaner. This is an error
> because it is
>
> 1) Only measuring the tailpipe. What emmisions
> are dispersed in the mfg of
> the ethanol?
> and
> 2) what bad stuff is coming out the tailpipe we
> aren't measuring yet?
>
> John
> Aircooled.Net Inc.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jim Akiba" <syncrolist@BOSTIG.COM>
> To: <vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM>
> Sent: Monday, May 21, 2007 3:53 PM
> Subject: politics of e85 RE: E85 in vanagons
>
>
> > Most of the softparts will be ok, the one I'm
> wondering about is the fuel
> > pump, but we've found an e85 capable pump for
> $40 that can be had
> nationwide
> > just in case. Not sure about the plastic used
> for some parts etc.. remains
> > to be seen on the stock boxer.
> >
> > The engine management for the stock boxer
> won't be able to compensate to
> run
> > e85 correctly, but it may run and might drive
> albeit very lean... question
> > is will the cooling effect of the e85 help
> avoid detonation running so
> lean?
> > Not sure, but somebody should try it.
> >
> > You hit the nail on the head about the
> ethanol production. But not moving
> to
> > e85 isn't going to fight the battle you
> intend to engage in. Diesel is
> being
> > crippled through legislation in the US...
> unfortunately the big money guys
> > can make more pushing ethanol, and keep costs
> lower, so all the new
> > particulate emissions regs are killing light
> duty diesel infiltration...
> low
> > sulphur was supposed to open the floodgates
> for OEMS to bring in euro
> light
> > duty diesel, and now just in time for the low
> sulphur mandate to come into
> > effect they clamp down hard on particulates,
> an even more expensive and
> > currently complicated thing to curb in
> diesels.
> >
> > The best thing is that I'm aware of several
> large scale cellulosic ethanol
> > plants, that are under production, but that
> don't know what process they
> are
> > going to use to make the ethanol... they are
> building the )@&$%@* plants
> but
> > haven't figured out the process yet... anyone
> puzzled? Me too. But just
> > follow the money up the yes men until it
> breaks on a fat cat.
> >
> > IMHO Resisting ethanol is not the way to help
> the situation. And ethanol
> > isn't the holy grail, but it's a start, it's
> got the money behind it, and
> > it'll work for lot's of people's wallets
> now.. and it does burn much
> > cleaner. My question would be under current
> production methods, what's the
> > total emissions of the production of e85 vs
> gasoline given the energy
> > density differences.
> >
> > The next thing that is going to happen to
> squash light duty diesels in the
> > US is the combo of GDI and either combined
> cycles or hybrids along with
> the
> > e85. They will continue to creep closer to
> diesel mpgs as time goes on.
> It's
> > cheaper to make GDI engines than fit light
> duty diesels with 5 way ammonia
> > or nox catalysts, unless there's a
> breakthrough, watch the BLUETEC
> > initiative to see if it's going to happen. If
> it fails, or doesn't make
> much
> > money kiss your light duty diesel wishes
> goobye for the next 8 years
> anyhow.
> >
> > Jim Akiba
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Matt Roberds
> [mailto:mattroberds@COX.NET]
> > Sent: Monday, May 21, 2007 4:55 PM
> > To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
> > Subject: Re: E85 in vanagons
> >
> > > From: Adrian Bertarelli
> <abertarelli@GMAIL.COM>
> > > Date: Mon, 21 May 2007 12:03:56 -0600
> > >
> > > I haven't seen this question asked so i
> thought just for the
> > > discussion, what would it take to convert
> our stock engines to run
> > > on e85.
> >
> > The first thing you have to do is make sure
> all the soft parts of the
> > fuel system are compatible with E85. E85
> will eat some kinds of rubber
> > and plastic. Most newer hoses will be able
> to cope with at least E10,
> > but E85 may be too much for them.
> Unfortunately most aftermarket
> > suppliers won't know the answer to this
> question, so "fill it up and
> > see what starts leaking" is sometimes used as
> a test method.
> >
> > If you do nothing else, the ECU will probably
> more or less deal with
> > the different fuel. If you do want to
> twiddle something, things in the
> > direction of making it run richer may help a
> little. E85 has less
> > energy than gasoline, so your engine power
> will be down. If it's engine
> > rebuild time, you can bump up the compression
> to get some of the power
> > back. If you bump it up enough, though, you
> have to run premium gas if
> > you're not running E85.
> >
> > If you like the _idea_ of E85 but the above
> makes you uneasy, there is
> > something else you can do. Run regular gas
> in your van, but once a year,
> > drive out into the countryside. Find a
> farmer and hand him a couple of
> > hundred bucks, cash. This will achieve the
> same goals as E85 production
> > without all that fooling around with corn and
> combines and trucks and
> > refineries and stuff. By most accounts,
> ethanol from corn takes more
> > energy to produce than you get back from
> burning the ethanol - a lot of
> > the ethanol stuff is a way to subsidize
> farming without appearing to
> > subsidize farming. Yes, I know you can get a
> net energy gain by using
> > crops other than corn to make ethanol, but as
> far as I know, this is not
> > done in the US.
> >
> > Biodiesel is _probably_ a net energy gain -
> you usually get more out
> > than you put into it. I don't think there's
> enough farmland for the US
> > to grow all of our fuel, but we can probably
> make a useful dent in what
> > we import if we decide we really want to.
> >
> > The absolute sure-fire 100% guaranteed way to
> save money on gas is...
> > drive less! :) Then, do all the things that
> you've heard about since
> > 1974... make sure your tires are full of air,
> change your fuel and air
> > filters regularly, keep your engine in good
> tune, drive sedately, etc.
> > When it's time for another car, consider one
> of the hybrids or the newer
> > common-rail-injection diesels. You will have
> to look in Tokyo and/or
> > Wolfsburg; Detroit isn't interested in
> building efficient cars. In
> > 2007, there's no reason why your "daily
> driver" sedan shouldn't average
> > 45-50 mpg.
> >
> > Matt Roberds
> >
> > !DSPAM:46521603132291041711982!
> >
> >
>
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