Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2006 11:53:23 -0700
Reply-To: Old Volks Home <oldvolkshome@GMAIL.COM>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: Old Volks Home <oldvolkshome@GMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Blinking coolant level light
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.0.20060903205714.01e54ee0@elltel.net>
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Boy, I sure know to stir up a hornet's nest. ;-)
One of the hats I wear here at VWG/Airhead is "Quality Assurance/Control".
This requires me to inspect and sometimes test each new reproduction item we
have made before it even lands on the shelf to go out to the customer. My
experience with the Chinese made automotive product, especially
electrical items has been an educational journey into the morasse of hit and
miss, with some items having more misses than hits. In the past 18 months,
we have crushed and discarded several thousand dollars in Turn Signal and
Headlight Switches, along with several different relays because of poorly
manufactured and assembled quality. This did not include the coolant relay
of the present discussion because we don't carry that in our line (YET). I
might add that many of these same items we have made for ourselves are made
in the same factories that supply Volkswagen, Mercedes, Nissan, Mazda, Honda
and Toyota for their Chinese, Japanese, German, Mexican and Brazil vehicle
production lines. Our specified standards and item/sample approval are as
rigorous as the OEM's, if not moreso. The owner here (Scott) spent more
time in China this year than his previous travels in the past 10 years
combined addressing the problems we have had. I'm only going by my personal
experience, not an industry-wide survey.
Several years ago I replaced the Fuel Pump Relay and the Fuel Injection
Control Relay on my 84 Westy (located in that little plastic box in the
engine compartment) because of severe corrosion noted. Since these are
essentially the same relay type as used on driving/fog light assemblies (but
without a tab for the mounting) and are rated 40amp, they were relatively
simple to find and install. Chinese made was all I found, so I installed
them and one of them lasted just a few months, burnt to a crisp. Thinking
something else might have been at fault to cause this, I went the whole
route trouble-shooting what they actually operated and found nothing that
could have contributed to its demise. I bought and installed the German
made variety for both and haven't had a problem since. But as Loren Busch
says, times are changing, so the quality factor may have come up since then.
Just because the VW-Audi Logo appears on a product doesn't denote quality,
Chinese, German, Mexican or Brazilian. That's unfortunate, because anyone
can silkscreen that on, especially the parts counterfeiters that have
mushroomed in the far east. Here at the West Coast ports there have been
millions of dollars in counterfeit auto parts seized and crushed to prevent
shoddy merchandise reaching the end consumer.
I agree that higher costs don't always translate into better quality and
lower costs don't always translate into poorer quality. But my personal
experience with buying and selling parts for almost 30 years certainly bears
a lot of weight in the opinion that items coming from the ORIGINAL
manufacturer of an item is the standard to work from when determining which
is the better value. That's probably the driving force that makes me
"brow-beat" the people I work with that shortcuts cannot and will not be
tolerated when we choose to reproduce an item (Scott calls me the ULTIMATE
"devil's advocate" when testing and approving an item).
The Coolant Warning Relay in question made in China is perhaps a quality
made unit, made with the blessing and approval of VW. But I've seen
other OEM logo approved products coming out of Brazil and Mexico that while
may be approved for the local market it is intended for would not meet
standards of approval in the European or North American markets. The "stamp
of approval" is not the same world-wide because materials, craftsmanship and
assembly are not the same world-wide. Eventually it will be because the
economy and quality standards of this century will demand that it be so.
VW of China is about where VW do Brazil was about 25 years ago. My buddy
has an 83 Brazilian produced Beetle (called a "Fusca") that he's had for
around 18 years now. The paint quality certainly isn't up to German specs
as rust and peeling have been prevalent in certain spots for several years
now, the chrome on the bumpers is wasting away and the electrics sometimes
gives him fits. This is a car that has been garaged and pampered in a dry
climate since it was imported. The 1992 Mexican Beetle he also owns since
new was much better made and it shows when placed side by side with his
Fusca. And when he parks his unrestored but nearly perfect 68 Beetle next
to the other two, man whadda world of difference!
It certainly won't take China 25 years to move ahead of the Japanese or the
Europeans. Today's much more rapid economy and quality demands will see to
that.
So go with the Chinese relay. I agree with Mark Drillock, whom I appreciate
his usually enlightened opinion, because if I didn't my Coolant Warning
Light would still be blinking away (yep, it was both the relay and the gauge
on mine).
I dunno everything, but I try to learn at least one new thing every day :-)
--
Jim Thompson
84 Westfalia 2.1 "Ole Putt"
73 K Ghia Coupe "Denise"
72 411 Station Wagon "Pug"
oldvolkshome@gmail.com
http://www.oldvolkshome.com
**********************************
On 9/4/06, Charles McGehee <chasm@elltel.net> wrote:
>
> Well, I dunno. Is there really evidence that "Made in Germany" is
> absolutely better than "Made in China?" It's my impression that the
> Germans are riding a historical reputaiion which is not necessarily
> deserved. I know, for instance, that they are outsourcing work to
> Asia every bit as much as we are, and that one reason their "Made in
> Germany" parts, etc., are more expensive is because their production
> costs are so high. High price does not necessarily equate with good
> quality, nor does low price necessarily equate with poor quality,
> especially in this day and age. I assume -- maybe wrongly -- if VW
> allows their logo onto a product they approve of the quality. Maybe
> I'm wrong, but it would hurt them severely if parts bearing their
> name were shoddy wherever they're made. I also know that not all
> parts in German cars, etc., are necessarily made in Germany.
>
> So where does this leave me. If had clearer evidence that "Made in
> China" relays were bad, I'd avoid them.
>
> What's a mother to do?
>
> Charles
> "85 Westy
>
> At 07:39 PM 9/3/2006, you wrote:
> >Ahhhhh, made in Shanghai. No wonder their retail price is way below
> >the importing warehouse cost, much less the resulting markup for the
> >factory KAE relay, which retails for around $30 at VW (I think $27
> >or so at Bus Depot). Hope it works (I'll stick to buying KAE
> >relays, I haven't been much a fan of Chinese relays of late, even if
> >they do have the VW-Audi Logo) ;-)
> >--
> >Jim Thompson
> >84 Westfalia 2.1 "Ole Putt"
> >73 K Ghia Coupe "Denise"
> >72 411 Station Wagon "Pug"
> ><mailto:oldvolkshome@gmail.com>oldvolkshome@gmail.com
> >http://www.oldvolkshome.com
> >**********************************
> >On 9/3/06, Charles McGehee
> ><<mailto:chasm@elltel.net>chasm@elltel.net> wrote:
> >Ugh. You made my day, Warren. But thanks for the heads up. It's
> >hard not to ignore a blinking light that seems to have a mind of its
> >own, I know.
> >As regards my problem, I finally found the relay and got it out --
> >no thanks to VW and Bentley. Unfortunately, though, it's a holiday
> >weekend, and being in a small town where parts are hard to come by
> >anyway, I'll have to wait until Tuesday to see what's
> >available. Will probably have to go on line to get one. By the way,
> >Triangle Auto Parts (dba <http://Innerauto.com>Innerauto.com) seems
> >to have the best price:
> ><
> http://www.innerauto.com/store/psearch.php?part_number=191919376a&x=14&y=5
> >
> http://www.innerauto.com/store/psearch.php?part_number=191919376a&x=14&y=5
> >Charles
> >'85 Westy
> >At 08:26 AM 9/3/2006, Warren Lail wrote:
> > >Not sure about your blinking light, but a few years ago I had the
> > >same symptoms on my 87 GL "Long John." A normal round of short
> > >blinks at startup, and then afterward a non-stop blinking
> > >situation. If I turned the ignition off and then back on, sometimes
> > >it would go back out. However, it was not long afterward that I was
> > >driving around in Westcliff, CO, and blew a headgasket. As it
> > >turned out, the fan or fan switch (can't remember now) was defective
> > >and the engine overheated.
> > >
> > >I was never sure whether the blinking light and the blown head
> > >gasket were related, but after I had the head gasket repaired I also
> > >changed the fan, the switch, and the radiator and the problem never
> > >came recurred.
> > >
> > >The (possible) moral of the story: don't ignore those blinking lights!
> > >
> > >Warren L.
> > >88 Westy 2.2 "Billy Bones"
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