Date:         Thu, 3 Aug 2006 09:43:23 -0700
Reply-To:     Loren Busch <starwagen@GMAIL.COM>
Sender:       Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From:         Loren Busch <starwagen@GMAIL.COM>
Subject:      Re: 15" Wheels/Tires
In-Reply-To:  <c803c1a70608020634k50fc4144pddef2b54b4d6229a@mail.gmail.com>
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 Very long, read at your own risk.

Summary of what I say in the long message that follows:  The wrong tires
will make you wallow all over the road.  Bad shocks will make you wallow all
over the road.  The wrong tires can fail if being used on a Vanagon. The
right tires and good shocks make a very significant difference.  And two
nearly identical Westfalias, running 14" vs. 16" wheels, get damn near the
same gas mileage.  If you want the details of how I come to these
conclusions, read on.

BTW, I expect a bunch of comments, explanations, etc. for what I relate
here.  This is posted to pass on real world experience, not to expand on
theory.  YMMV



Okay guys, I'm going to jump into this tire thread with some real world
experience on two different Westies.  I've told this tale before but it fits
this conversation to a tee, all about tires, wheels, and shocks  Keep in
mind that some of this story occurred before the Internet and this list were
providing the kind of information that is available to me today.

About 12 years ago I acquired my first Westfalia, an '85.  It needed tires
so off I went to the local, trusted tire supply store.  They put on a set of
185R14 Michelin tires and I trusted that they were the right tires for the
vehicle.  Over the next five years I drove over 30,000 miles on those tires.
I didn't know any better, I thought that it was natural for the Westy to
wallow all over the road and scare the hell out of me in crosswinds.  I
drove from Seattle to Big Bear in California and back at least five times
with those tires and many other places.  Then one tire developed a
separation, got very lumpy.  Into my tire store for a fix.  With what I
later realized was a look of horror on his face, the clerk, without
hesitation and after nearly six years, replaced two tires and adjusted the
price down to less than the price of a single tire.  He told me the tires I
was replacing were no longer available and the tires he was putting on were
'better'.  He also suggested replacing all four but I settled for two at the
time, put them on the rear. The ride did improve a little.  About a year
later a second of the original four started to develop a separation. I
pulled into the tire place as I was leaving for California again and asked
for two more tires to match the newer tires on the rear.  Though not in
stock they arranged for me to have them put on in Vacaville, Ca. two days
later.  So, like an idiot, I drove nearly 800 miles with one very lumpy
right front tire and because fools are sometimes protected by some kind of
Devine Intervention, survived that trip without a blowout.  I had the two
new tires put on in Vacaville.  I had not driven ten feet and I realized
that there was something very different about the way the Westy handled.  Even
at driveway speeds it was apparent.  No more wallow, solid on the road,
crosswinds no longer feeling like a death threat. I was elated by the vastly
improved performance on the rest of the trip.  After returning home I took
the '85 into the shop for some work and told my mechanic to replace the
shocks (I was starting to realize that handling could be improved).  He put
on the shocks available from NAPA, KYB's.  My mechanic commented that the
old shocks were 'hammered' and probably the originals from the factory.  I
had close to 160,000 on the van at that time.  Again, a very noticeable
improvement in handling and drivability with the new shocks. The lesson was
very clear even though it took me six years to learn it: The right tires and
good shocks make one hell of a difference in handling on a Vanagon, probably
even more on a Westfalia.  BTW, for information, the wallowy, soft, and
separating tires were, to the best of my recollection, Michelin XZX's, no
longer made.  The replacements were the Michelin MXT's, a really great tire
but also NLA.

Jump ahead a couple of months.  The '85 was totaled and replaced with a '90
Westy.  It needed tires but by now I've subscribed to the various Internet
lists and know a little bit. So off to the tire place and had a set of
185R14 Agilis put on.  Great ride, now in for an alignment.  Much better
ride (It was obvious the Westy needed an alignment).  Then into the mechanic
for all the stuff you have done when acquiring a new/old vehicle.  Based on
past experience I had ordered a set of KYB's and had them put on also.  With
the Agilis and the new shocks and an alignment the ride was great and solid,
crosswinds barely noticeable. I acquired a set of used VW alloys (6" rim vs.
steel 51/2" rim) and put them on.  Almost to the point that it is
subjective, but I swear that there was a slight improvement in ride and
stability with the wider rims.  I also experimented with tire pressure.  I
ended up finding that the factory recommended pressure, on the little
sticker, was the best handling and best riding for me. Surprise, surprise,
maybe those German engineers know what they are doing. I've put about 30,000
miles on the '90 now.  And last spring I made one more change.  The KYB's
are great until you get to a little bit of roughness on the highway or onto
a dirt road, then they are harsh, very harsh.  So I ordered a set of
Bilstiens for the front and had them put on just before heading for Syncro
de Mayo.  I liked the improved ride comfort so much that when I got to Santa
Cruz I had Peter at Van Cafe (where I'd ordered the front Bilsteins) put
Bilsteins on the rear.  With the Bilsteins all around the ride is superb.  Soft
when it needs to be but very, very stable in the turns and much, much better
than the KYB's on rough roads and washboards.

Now to one other tid bit.  Part of this thread has talked about larger
wheels/tires reducing RPMs and thus saving gas.  Well, here it is, from the
real world.  Last Fall Phil Zimmerman and I spent about 10 days wandering
around NE Oregon, before and after the Bus Pilots Reunion at Catherine
Creek.  I'm running stock 14" factory alloys, Phil, on his '87 Westy, is
running 16" wheels and Nokians, I think 215's, don't know the aspect ratio.
And we both have automatics. I do know, based on GPS data, that my
speedometer was reading about 2% high, Phil's was running about 3 to 5% low.
We did a lot of up and down, around and back, driving.  When we would stop
to get gas, with one exception, he would take anywhere from a tenth to five
tenths of a gallon less than I did.  But, I noticed that when headed down
hill, usually with the foot off the gas, I'd tend to overtake him, I rolled
faster.  But wait, there's more.  This Spring, Phil and I again were running
together on the way to Syncro de Mayo, me with 14" wheels, Phil with 16".  On
this trip, for well over 2,000 miles, when we'd fill up I was the one using
less gas!  Again, from a tenth to as much as a half gallon.  I'd made two
changes that could account for the difference.  One, rebuilt injectors and
the engine running better than it ever has, and second, the addition of a
Bagawest carrier in the luggage rack that may be creating a better
aerodynamic flow over my rig.

But either way, the difference in gas mileage was very little between the
14" vs. 16" wheels.