Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 13:04:12 -0700
Reply-To: Robert Fisher <refisher@MCHSI.COM>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: Robert Fisher <refisher@MCHSI.COM>
Subject: Re: Bus Depot Rebuilt 2.1L - opinions?
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original
...and the 'War and Peace' award goes to...
: )
Cya,
Robert
----- Original Message -----
From: "The Bus Depot" <vanagon@BUSDEPOT.COM>
To: <vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM>
Sent: Monday, July 25, 2005 12:35 PM
Subject: Re: Bus Depot Rebuilt 2.1L - opinions?
> Terry
> as usual you speak of things you know little about like my
> work and Joys engine Joys engine had a melted combustion
> chamber due to a bad injector I spoke with Brien Dews he
> swapped the new Boston engine in and took the old blown
> engine out I took her old engine apart and it blew a hose
> from the overheating not the other way around
This is somewhat of a reoccurring story when it comes to rebuilt engines
from any source. Of course the vast majority of quality rebuilt engines go
years without a problem, but in the rare cases where there is a problem, the
scenario often plays out like this: Someone's engine blows up, so they buy a
new one and either install it themselves or have it professionally
installed. Within a relatively short period of time, the new engine develops
some sort of failure. The rebuilder inspects the engine (or has a mechanic
local to the purchaser do it) and determines that the engine damage was
caused by some external factor (i.e. overheating, bad fuel mixture, etc.).
In some cases it may have been a pre-existing problem, and perhaps had
something to do with why the original engine failed. In other cases it may
have been caused when the new engine was put in (i.e. failure to properly
bleed the cooling system, something as minor as a poorly clamped hose, or
even the failure of an already-marginal part perhaps brought on by the extra
stress of removal and reinstallation). In other cases it may be purely
coincidental.
The van owner, of course, desparately wants to believe that the failure was
due to poor workmanship on the part of the rebuilder. After all, this would
qualify it as a warranty issue. The rebuilder, on the other hand, has a
financial incentive to blame external causation, as this means he doesn't
have to cover it. And if the engine was installed professionally, the
mechanic that installed it has a strong incentive to blame the engine rather
than admitting the possibility that something he did (or overlooked) during
installation might have contributed to the failure. (Or even admitting that
he has absolutely no clue why the engine failed.)
Here's where you get into a tricky area. What caused what? For example, did
the engine overheat because the head bolts were loose, or did the head bolts
loosen due to expansion/contraction as a result of externally-caused
overheating? While Boston Bob could expound on this much more than I could
(I'm a parts guy, not a rebuilder), an experienced rebuilder can tell a lot
about causation by doing an "autopsy" on the engine. There are often
telltale signs that may identify, with a high degree of certainty, what
caused the failure. This is generally what the rebuilder will do in the
event of an engine failure. Also most rebuilt engines have heat tabs
installed that can identify if the engine overheated.
This often comes down to an issue of trust and "good faith" - the honesty
and the expertise of the end user, the rebuilder, and the shop that
installed the engine and/or inspected it after it failed. In the extreme,
some rebuilders (including a few larger ones) will pretty much blame
external factors any time their engine fails, in the hopes that the customer
will eventually give up and go away. Getting them to cover anything is like
pulling teeth, even in the most blatant cases. At the same time, there are
some equally dishonest customers (or mechanics) who actively try to cover up
evidence, such as scraping off all of the heat tabs that would have proven
that the engine overheated, or simply lying and and saying that it never
overheated when they know perfectly well that it did (and subsequent
inspection of the engine eventually proves it). More common, I think, is a
certain degree of wishful thinking. Two mechanics may tell someone that that
short period of overheating before he pulled his van over might have caused
his engine damage, and one says "no, it couldn't have." Since the Vanagon
owner desparately wants to believe that he had no hand in the engine's
failure, he will tend to place more weight on the opinion that matches what
he wants to hear, even if the weight of the evidence suggests otherwise.
Obviously I can't tell in advance which of my customers are honest (although
the vast majority are, of course), but I can pick and choose my suppliers.
This is why I deal with AVP on rebuilt engines. Not that they have never had
a defective product, but I have found them to err on the side of the
customer in cases where it was even a remotely gray area. I have never seen
them simply refuse to cover an engine. Even in cases where there were
obvious signs of external causation of the damage, they've generally offered
to go halves with the customer. And in rare cases where there was an actual
manufacturing defect, I've seen them go beyond their printed warranty
coverage in many cases, such as reimburing labor costs even though their
written warranty doesn't cover it. AVP is a small family-run business
(husband, wife, and son), not an assembly line, and they are upstanding
people. I have said before that I wish that all of my suppliers were as
customer-oriented as Erin and Leonard are.
As for the quality of the engines, I will say that I had AVP engines on my
last two Vanagons and never had any problems, and I have had hundreds of
customers throughout the years with the same experience. Not that they've
never built a bad engine (nobody has a zero percent defect rate, not even
VW), but they've been rare, and in those rare cases they were very good
about standing behind them (to the extent that is reasonable, and even often
beyond that point, as I noted above). Of course if someone's engine does
fail they tend to be very vocal about it, especially if they are convinced
(rightly or wrongly) that they were not to blame. But, with AVP being one of
the last remaining Vanagon engine specialists (Boston Bob being another),
there are many of their engines out in the field, so a handful of complaints
is still a drop in the bucket compared to the vast majority that have worked
flawlessly.
It may also be worth noting that among the few who did comment negatively on
AVP engines here, most of them did not actually buy the engine themselves,
but bought a used van that already had an AVP engine in it. While they may
say things like "I'm sure it was never overheated or abused," how can they
possibly know? (For that matter, perhaps the prior owner knew differently,
which is why he sold the van in the first place.) There are many external
factors that can cause an engine to fail. As some of us know from
experience, it may only take overheating the van one time to blow a head
gasket or worse. (That is why I needed an AVP engine in the first place!)
Before blaming faulty workmanship for an engine problem, you must rule out
the multitude of external factors that may have caused such a failure. This
is completely impossible if you did not even own the van at the time!
For those who feel safer with an official VW rebuild, I do sell them as
well. In my experience they have roughly the same defect rate as the AVP
ones, but some people feel safer using "genuine VW" anyway and are willing
to pay for that. As for myself, I will buy another AVP engine next time I
need one. Not just because I trust their product, but perhaps even more
importantly because I trust them. I feel that if I did have a problem,
they'd stand behind it and treat me fairly.
- Ron Salmon
The Bus Depot, Inc.
www.busdepot.com
(215) 234-VWVW
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Toll-Free for Orders by PART # : 1-866-BUS-DEPOT
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