Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 17:28:00 -0700
Reply-To: Vince S <gipsyflies@COMCAST.NET>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: Vince S <gipsyflies@COMCAST.NET>
Subject: Re: Disappearing Coolant - Head Leak?
In-Reply-To: <BAY9-DAV116tdqVvPdL00066af2@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
It is amazing how little useful information about motor oil is out
there. I google it and the same "more than you ever want to know motor
oil" I read years ago is still most informative article. There are
others from oil manufacturers but most have so much marketing fluff that
make me very skeptical.
I admit that using 5W30 on Vanagon may be a bit extreme. I probably
should have stick with the 10W30 I have use until now.
Just because what is stated in the VW owner's manual doesn't mean it
must be accurate and correct. Using very high viscosity oil is
old-school thinking. The chart does not distinguish between petroleum
and synthetic so I interpreted it have to tailor to the former as it is
more prevalent. (I am surprised it mentions synthetic oil can be used)
Many studies have shown that majority of engine wear occur within the
first few minutes of starting the engine while very little when the
engine is hot. Many of which are attributable to revving the engine
before the oil have a chance to form a film between the two wearing
surfaces or using oil with too high viscosity.
When I first bought my Miata I was very uncomfortable with the specified
low viscosity 5W30 oil (applicable to petroleum base oil as well). Now
12 years later (BTW it is 1992 not 93) the engine is still as tight.
Please refer to the very good viscosity index as well as the flash point
of the Mobil 1 vs other oil.
http://www.vtr.org/maintain/oil-overview.html
Mobil does not make synthetic in very high viscosity must be for good
reasons. When Mobil 1 was first introduced it was only available in
5W30.
Please note that the SAE viscosity designation method is a very crude
notation. You cannot rely on these numbers alone to compare two
diversely different quality oil. Many synthetic manufacturers will tell
you that with synethic you do not need to change the viscosity for
different seasons as you should with petroleum based. Synthetic oil
superior resistance to thinning and molecular chain breakdown is the
reason you can run significant lower viscosity grade for a given
temperature and benefit from the lower frictional loss.
I would like to take some measurement of the oil pressure just to see
for myself. Please see the paragraph about the oil pressure with jet
boat on Amsoil's website:
http://www.performanceoiltechnology.com/frequentlyaskedquestions.htm
Some Vanagon owners have experienced oil pressure problem with 5W30 but
this could be due to 1) worn engine 2) petroleum 5W30 used in hot
climate and driven hard 3) faulty pressure sensor.
I recognize Vanagon's flat engine does have some special consideration
due to the lifter chatter if poor quality oil filter is used. I have
never experience this problem since I switched to synthetic and use only
good quality filter. My Vanagon sometimes sits not used for months in
the winter.
In closing, I wonder if the oil viscosity chart in the waterboxer
owner's manual is inherited from the air cool legacy which operates in a
significantly much wider temperature span for a given ambient
temperature as well as running much hotter.
- Vince
http://gipsyflies.home.comcast.net
1989 Vanagon GL Camper
1993 Mazda Miata (for sale)
1996 Land Rover Discovery
2005 Mini Cooper S
-----Original Message-----
From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com] On Behalf
Of dave
Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2004 5:33 PM
To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
Subject: Re: Disappearing Coolant - Head Lean?
Read the manual for the Vanagon. Heavy weight oil is recommended. If
you put in the thinner stuff (ok for some modern engines) you will drop
oil pressure dangerously low, ecspecailly if hot weather, and high load
is on engine.
I know from experience that the 5W-30 oil causes oil pressure
problems.
i run Mobil 15-50 oil, I would prefer a 20-50, but mobil 1 does not
make that (20-50 is recommended multi viscosity for hot (85F plus)
weather)_
The problem with oil breaking down does not have to do with thicker
oil breaking down sooner, the real problem is that multi viscosity oils
tend to break down in viscosity much faster than straight oils.
VW even recommends straight 40 oil for hot weather operation, that is
really what I'd like to use, but again, Mobil 1 does not make that
product, so i stick with the 15-50.
As stated by other auuthor 5-30 oil is too thin unless you live in a
freezing cold area. Also of improtance is stick with a genuine Mann, or
Mahle oil filter, Fram filters have greater pressure drop, and do not
have a good enough back flow valve. Fram will cause my lifters to clack
like crazy after sitting several days, OEM filters solved that problem.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Vince S" <gipsyflies@COMCAST.NET>
To: <vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM>
Sent: Sunday, September 12, 2004 10:32 AM
Subject: Re: Disappearing Coolant - Head Lean?
Chuck,
I agree with you my coolant leak though does not appear to be the sensor
and possibly the tank. I was suspectious of the tank as o-ring rarely
fail unless you distrub it. I will not be surprised that it is the tank
getting britle.
I will carefully unscrew the sensor and see.
I did put in 5W30 yesterday. I had in the past used 10W30 but never
anything heavier. My reason is 1) Many high performance vehicles
including my supercharged Mini uses 5W30 synthetic so I don't see why
the Vanagon couldn't unless the bearing tolerances in it is wider. 2) I
read from some good source that heavier weight motor oil is "thicken" by
additives. Since synthetic have very long and strong polymer chain it is
OK to run significantly lower viscosity when the spec calls for heavier
petrolium based.
The Mini's official weight is 5W30 and am quite sure most BMW is the
same too.
Why are people putting down Mobil 1? I have used it for years and it was
one of the first synethic.
- Vince
http://gipsyflies.home.comcast.net
1989 Vanagon GL Camper
1993 Mazda Miata (for sale)
1996 Land Rover Discovery
2005 Mini Cooper S
-----Original Message-----
From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com] On Behalf
Of Chuck Mathis
Sent: Sunday, September 12, 2004 7:16 AM
To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
Subject: Re: Disappearing Coolant - Head Lean?
Vince;
Sounds like you are definitely leaking from the sensor area. When I
dealt with that problem the o-ring was intact and very subtle while the
sensor was leaking. If you've got dry contacts it probably is the
o-ring but it could also be a crack in the tank at the threads. I'll
keep my fingers crossed for you.
Are you really running Mobil 1 5W-30 in a WBX or is that a typo? The WBX
usually requires something in the range of a 40-50 weight. I ran Mobil
1 15w-50 for years but recently switched to Castrol Syntec 5W-50 cause
all the FLAPS were out of the heavy Mobil 1.
Chuck
'85 Wolfsburg Westy - 'Roland the Road Buffalo'
Vince wrote:
Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 15:16:32 -0700
From: Vince S <gipsyflies@COMCAST.NET>
Subject: Disappearing Coolant - Head Lean?
I was performing my annual tune up / oil change on my 89 Westy today. I
started off by checking the oil level but I notice the coolant
filler/reservoir tank is totally empty. What happened? I filled it a
couple of months back when it was just below the Min mark and now it is
bone dry. My immediate thought of the dreaded inevitable water boxer
head leak which I have been lucky so far.
I crawled under the engine to see if there is signs of the leak. Sure
enough the left rear header pipe is wet and it is unmistakably coolant.
Very carefully I visual inspected the head on the driver side and there
is no sign of coolant residue. Suspecting the water pump I check that
too and there is also no sign of coolant.
Time to look from above so I open the rear engine hatch. I can see much
trace of coolant clinging to the outside of coolant expansion tank,
especially what looks to be the seam of the top and bottom halves. The
plastic expansion tank must developed a leak at the welded seam, I
thought.
I more carefully inspected the tank with better lighting and I notice
the pool of coolant in the dimple at the top of the tank where the
coolant level sensor resides. Without the necessary part to repair it I
didn't want to disrupt the area. I just wanted to see if the leak is
from within the sensor, or leaking between the sensor and the tank. I
unplugged the sensor connector and it is bone dry on the contacts so it
appear the lead is between the sensor and the tank. According to the
Bentley there is a o-ring. The o-ring must became harden over all this
years and now does not seal under pressure. Since it is weekend I
decided not to unscrew the sensor in case I need to use the vehicle
during the weekend.
I was relief that it is not the dreaded head gasket leak.
I proceed to a complete tune up including changing the spark plugs,
distributor rotor, distributor cap, air filter, oil filter and change
the oil with Mobil 1 5W30 synthetic.
I also thoroughly wiped down the ignition wire with soap and water as
well as every parts I can clean in the engine bay. If there is a
cleanest Vanagon engine bay award I think I stand a good chance of
winning it.
- Vince
http://gipsyflies.home.comcast.net
1989 Vanagon GL Camper
1993 Mazda Miata
1996 Land Rover Discovery
2005 Mini Cooper S
